Angus bull calf

[Ky hills]

This is an Angus bull calf that so far I have left intact. His mother calved last year in late April at around 15 months old and had this one less than a year later on April 4. She is a commercial cow that I bought as one of a group of 500 lb heifers in which her and another were already bred at that point.

 

[wbvs58]

She has done a good job on him.

Ken

 

[Davemk]

She is a keeper for sure. Do you know what he weighed at birth? Thinking of using him for herd bull?

 

[Ky hills]

She is a keeper for sure. Do you know what he weighed at birth? Thinking of using him for herd bull?

Thanks. No he wasn't weighed at birth, but was smaller in comparison to his mates. The cow has calved unassisted both years even as a small too young heifer. I am considering keeping him back as a bull.

 

[Baldie Maker]

Does propagating genetic defects not concern you when keeping bulls from cows with unknown history? I've used and continue to use dirty bulls but I know it and can manage the breedings, interested in your take on the subject.

 

[Ky hills]

Does propagating genetic defects not concern you when keeping bulls from cows with unknown history? I've used and continue to use dirty bulls but I know it and can manage the breedings, interested in your take on the subject.

Defects are a concern. In this situation I think the possibility is fairly low. I know the sire and he is a registered bull that is clean. The cow was bred when purchased, no way to know for sure but it's a good possibility she was bred by her sire. That resulting calf was born with no abnormalities and sold as a steer. To my knowledge the lethal defects of AM or NH are probably pretty well out of the gene pool as far as known carriers at this point. Years ago there was no dna or genetic testing yet somehow cattle were still bred.

 

[Katpau]

I am able to test for all known and testable defects through the American Angus Assn. The cost is $45, and for $10 more I can do a complete genomic test that will predict the animals ability to pass on numerous traits, such as birth weights, weaning weights, disposition, carcass qualities and so on. I won't use a bull that hasn't been tested.

I suggest you contact the AAA and see what tests are available for your unregistered bull. I assume you can do the same tests, although you would not get EPD's. You should get a rating though. The Genomic scores are given in percentages from 1 to 100. One meaning the animal is in the top 1% for that trait and 100 meaning he is in the lowest percentile. The genetic condition bundle would tell you if your animal was a carrier of one of the identified defects.

 

[Ky hills]

I am able to test for all known and testable defects through the American Angus Assn. The cost is $45, and for $10 more I can do a complete genomic test that will predict the animals ability to pass on numerous traits, such as birth weights, weaning weights, disposition, carcass qualities and so on. I won't use a bull that hasn't been tested.

I suggest you contact the AAA and see what tests are available for your unregistered bull. I assume you can do the same tests, although you would not get EPD's. You should get a rating though. The Genomic scores are given in percentages from 1 to 100. One meaning the animal is in the top 1% for that trait and 100 meaning he is in the lowest percentile. The genetic condition bundle would tell you if your animal was a carrier of one of the identified defects.

Thanks for that suggestion and information. When I was registering some Angus calves we did do the genomic testing on them. I see it as a tool I'm not convinced of the accuracies of some traits like disposition even with it, but the aspect of testing for genetic defects is a valuable tool for sure.

 

[76 Bar]

The most valuable tool for procuring cattle is from those in a similar environment/mgt who make their living with cattle.

 

[Ky hills]

The most valuable tool for procuring cattle is from those in a similar environment/mgt who make their living with cattle.

After nearly 30 years of being involved with different aspects of the cattle industry I have recently come to that very conclusion. That is why I am retaining more females and using some of our own bulls registered or not.

 

[Katpau]

I agree with you about disposition. I think those can be way off. The data that produced the disposition scores, mostly comes from seed-stock breeders and is a judgement call. My own observations indicate that at least some bulls that scored well for disposition, will have flighty calves while others that scored more poorly have quiet calves. In my operation I only keep replacements until they are old enough for a disposition score as yearlings. The nervous and crazy are gone, so my scores would make any bulls numbers look good, even if 10 heifers were culled in order to find the quiet one.

Weaning weight can be highly influenced by environment, and therefore I''m not terribly concerned with those numbers, other than not wanting one in the lowest percentiles. Where I find the numbers to be most accurate and helpful is with birth weights and mature height and weight. Those numbers can help you avoid animals that are too small or large for your operation. Carcass numbers are also accurate I've been told, although my calves are sold at weaning, so I would not really know. I've also been surprisingly pleased with the apparent accuracy of calving ease scores.

I'll give an example. I had a bull with a 99 pound birth weight and a 700 pound weaning weight raised on this farm. I kept him to breed to cows hoping for good weaning weights. I had another bull with a 70 pound birth weight and 650 pound weaning weight. He came from a long line of calving ease cows and bulls. He was kept to breed the heifers. I know these weaning weights aren't impressive to those living in areas with fertile soils and that supplement their cows or calves, but they are good weights for my environment. The bulls both had genomic profiles run and they indicated the bull with the 99 pound birth weight would likely sire smaller calves at birth and at weaning. I did not really believe it, but after 4 years of calves it turned out to be true. That 99 pound bull actually had an average on his offspring birth weights that was lower than many of the calving ease AI sires I used over those same years. The other 70 pound bull performed pretty much to his genomic profile also. On average, his calves were just slightly larger at birth compared to the other, but weaned an average 15 pounds heavier. That was just the opposite of my expectations when I first selected them, but the genomics were right on.

 

[Ky hills]

I agree with you about disposition. I think those can be way off. The data that produced the disposition scores, mostly comes from seed-stock breeders and is a judgement call. My own observations indicate that at least some bulls that scored well for disposition, will have flighty calves while others that scored more poorly have quiet calves. In my operation I only keep replacements until they are old enough for a disposition score as yearlings. The nervous and crazy are gone, so my scores would make any bulls numbers look good, even if 10 heifers were culled in order to find the quiet one.

Weaning weight can be highly influenced by environment, and therefore I''m not terribly concerned with those numbers, other than not wanting one in the lowest percentiles. Where I find the numbers to be most accurate and helpful is with birth weights and mature height and weight. Those numbers can help you avoid animals that are too small or large for your operation. Carcass numbers are also accurate I've been told, although my calves are sold at weaning, so I would not really know. I've also been surprisingly pleased with the apparent accuracy of calving ease scores.

I'll give an example. I had a bull with a 99 pound birth weight and a 700 pound weaning weight raised on this farm. I kept him to breed to cows hoping for good weaning weights. I had another bull with a 70 pound birth weight and 650 pound weaning weight. He came from a long line of calving ease cows and bulls. He was kept to breed the heifers. I know these weaning weights aren't impressive to those living in areas with fertile soils and that supplement their cows or calves, but they are good weights for my environment. The bulls both had genomic profiles run and they indicated the bull with the 99 pound birth weight would likely sire smaller calves at birth and at weaning. I did not really believe it, but after 4 years of calves it turned out to be true. That 99 pound bull actually had an average on his offspring birth weights that was lower than many of the calving ease AI sires I used over those same years. The other 70 pound bull performed pretty much to his genomic profile also. On average, his calves were just slightly larger at birth compared to the other, but weaned an average 15 pounds heavier. That was just the opposite of my expectations when I first selected them, but the genomics were right on.

Thanks for that description. Those weaning weights you mentioned sound consistent and pretty good to me. We don't supplement a whole lot and I agree there is a wide range of management styles and environments that affect those weights.

 

[76 Bar]

The most valuable tool for procuring cattle is from those in a similar environment/mgt who make their living with cattle.

After nearly 30 years of being involved with different aspects of the cattle industry I have recently come to that very conclusion. That is why I am retaining more females and using some of our own bulls registered or not.

Some habits are hard to break. ;-) If your females have a proven history of meeting your expectations, it follows that wisely chosen sons will do so as well...registered or not.

 

[Ky hills]

The most valuable tool for procuring cattle is from those in a similar environment/mgt who make their living with cattle.

After nearly 30 years of being involved with different aspects of the cattle industry I have recently come to that very conclusion. That is why I am retaining more females and using some of our own bulls registered or not.

Some habits are hard to break. ;-) If your females have a proven history of meeting your expectations, it follows that wisely chosen sons will do so as well...registered or not.

For a long time I listened to the promoters and tried to play their game. Finally realized it was kind of like a shell game with an ever moving goal post with some making money off of the followers. The followers end up paying and loosing a lot of times trying to keep up with the latest and greatest and most of those weren't that great in the long run.
That unregistered calf is potentially another step toward a direction. The sire which was a registered bull was a very virile bull from a beautiful uddered dependable cow. The calf's dam even though just a commercial cow, has got my attention as a fertile productive young cow with a real good udder as well. I believe this calf should put out some good daughters if he is ultimately used in our herd. I cull hard, and want cattle that possess certain traits because these cattle are a full time venture and there isn't any room for error.

 

[Katpau]

Thanks for that description. Those weaning weights you mentioned sound consistent and pretty good to me. We don't supplement a whole lot and I agree there is a wide range of management styles and environments that affect those weights.

Those weights are actually adjusted weaning weights and very high for this herd. My adjusted weaning weights might be 600+ pounds on steer calves out of mature cows who gave birth early enough in my 60 day calving window to be able to utilize the early spring grass. These calves were both born early enough to have that advantage. Weaning weights are substantially less for calves born later even with an adjustment for age. They just don't have the advantage of utilizing those early grasses. Calves from heifers get a big adjustment in their AdjWW. The first bull I mention was out of an aged cow, but the second was a heifers calf. He had 68 pounds added for his adjWW. His WW would have been less than 600 without the adjustment. Our best grass is late March through late May or the first part of June. Summers are very dry and the nutritional value drops dramatically.