Angus, a superior product or superior marketing?

[MikeC]

CABS may have had legitamate reasons for fighting it so I won't judge them without knowing their reasons. But I have no problem with DNA testing if they could keep the cost down. I have what I believe is Angus and wouldn't mind having additional assurances. As already stated, the same goes with other breeds. They need assurances too! I would like to see the Angus industry continue stepping up to the plate.

Well here are your reasons:

Comments for USDA Listening Session
December 6,2005
Airport Hilton Hotel, Kansas City, MO
I am Jim Riemann, President of Certified Angus Beef LLC. I am speaking today with support of
John R. Crouch, Executive Vice-President of the American Angus Association, and the nearly
3 5,000 producer members of the American Angus Association (AAA).
I thank the USDA Agricultural Marketing Service for holding this listening session and providing
interested parties the opportunity to give input into the important issue of whether the agency should
use DNA technology in delivering its services. The agency should be both applauded and cautioned
for its effort to utilize the latest technology to capture efficiencies and achieve greater accuracy and
consistency in providing grading, certification, and verification services. But, it is critical that the
agency only select and utilize those technologies that add value and integrity to its services.
Breed associations of all species have always had as their primary responsibility the description and
characterization of purebred animals of the breed plus maintaining a record of each purebred animal.
Breed associations have always been the single authority for breed identification and have used
emerging technologies for that purpose.
USDA has traditionally recognized this primary role of breed associations and wisely relied on the
associations to provide specifications for breed identification, and the agency restates this position in
the Dec. 30,2002, Federal Register addressing marketing claims. It says, "Claims for breed of
livestock must meet criteria established by an AMS-recognized U.S. breed association for the
referenced breed. If the breed association does not establish criteria for this claim, animals must be
traceable to a parent registered with a breed association." I am pleased to report the American
Angus Association has a USDA Process Verified Program called ~ n ~ u s ~ o u r c e ~ ~ that enables each
individual animal to be identified and traced to a bull registered with the AAA. I believe it is
essential, for genetic heritage claims to be honest, that each individual animal be identified and
traceable to a registered purebred parent.
This discussion about DNA use for breed identification is focused on the branded beef programs
claiming Hereford or Angus influence. Hereford has two USDA certified programs using their name
and Angus has 46 or more. Over eighty percent of carcasses going through USDA certification
programs last year were marketed through a program claiming Angus influence. This appears to be
about Angus, but my comments apply to all breeds
Today's discussion is also about commercialization of one genomic firm's DNA technology for
breed identification by first getting USDA to endorse the technology instead of the firm first
working with the respective breed associations to get approval of the technology. It would be
reckless and irresponsible of USDA to endorse such technology without the respective breed
association's endorsement. It would be equally irresponsible if USDA endorsed DNA technology
created by only one genomic company.
The USDA Agricultural Marketing Service apparently has not been concerned in the last few years
about the plethora of angus beef programs
because they have continued approving new programs that nearly span the entire beef carcass quality
spectrum. No, this initiative is driven by pressure from a genomics company plus USDA's desire to
be sure they are using up-to-date technology to deliver services. USDA does not need to be
providing breed or genetic identification andlor verification services to the beef industry. That is the
role of purebred breed organizations. I am pleased the American Angus Association has recognized
this need and has started providing that service. I anticipate when other breeds see a similar need,
they will respond appropriately.
A thorough study of the many USDA certified programs, that claim Angus influence, shows every
beef carcass quality grade (except USDA Cutter and Canner---old cow carcasses for boneless beef)
represented by some Angus brand. The list ranges from the youngest highest quality carcasses (A
maturity, USDA Prime) to the oldest cull cows (E maturity, USDA Utility and Commercial grades).
There are vast differences in eating quality of beef products from those different quality grades and
maturity groups. Yet, it is very possible that animals that passed a DNA test for Angus genetics will
be present in every one of those quality levels and USDA certified programs.
Beef products with slight or small degrees of marbling are scientifically documented to have large
variation in, and often undesirable, palatability traits---tenderness, flavor, and juiciness. Several
Angus brands in retail stores use these degrees of marbling. It would be harmful to the Angus name
to have bad steaks from those brands marked with a label giving information that the product is
"DIVA verified as Angus." Instead of reducing consumer confusion, it will increase!
How does DNA verification that a beef product came from an animal with fifty percent or more
genetics of any breed help guarantee a high quality eating experience from the branded product?
What is the taste of beef from Charolais or Hereford or Simmental or Limousin or Angus? In
contrast, what is the taste of beef with slight, small, modest or slightly abundant degrees of
marbling? That's a much easier question to answer.
Recent press releases imply simply being Angus will produce a consistent high quality eating
experience. A package label showing a DNA test verified the meat was from an animal with fifty
percent Charolais, Simmental, Hereford, or Angus genetics does absolutely nothing to guarantee
quality or eating satisfaction. Angus cattle are known for producing a higher percentage of USDA
Choice carcasses, but like all other breeds, are capable of producing low grading carcasses.
Consumers are sorting the good from the bad brands and will continue to vote with their dollars.
But, these recent press releases mislead consumers.
I encourage USDAYs Labeling and Consumer Protection Staff to withdraw all current label
approvals and withhold approval of all label applications that identify product as DNA verified as
Angus or any other breed. Approval of such labels should be done only after USDA Agricultural
Research Service and USDA-AMS evaluate and approve, in cooperation with respective breed
associations, appropriate technology for this purpose.
The American Angus Association, through its producer members, is providing leadership to the beef
industry by creating a USDA Process Verified Program to identify Angus-sired cattle that will be
supplying the many Angus branded beef programs. It is my desire that some time in the future, and
~ n ~ u s ~ o u r c e ~ ~ tag will be required for any black-hided animal to become eligible for the Cerrijied
Angus ~ e e y brand and all of the other Angus branded beef programs.
I strongly recommend USDA leave breed identification issues to the respective breed associations.
Thank you.

 

[Schnurrbart]

You can certainly dna test to see if a steer has Hereford or Angus DNA. You will never convince me that you can DNA test a Baldie to see if he is 66% Hereford or 66% Angus though. I am in favor of testing every registration to verify parentage IF it can be done at a reasonable cost.

I don't know enough about it to say that they can tell % of breed in an animal but they can for sure determine what breeds are in the animal and it doesn't cost all that much. It will come down in price also as more and more start to do it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they will be able to determine % soon if not already.

 

[Badlands]

Badlands, here is the link to the Pinz web site that will describe changes in the breed over time. What you have today is not what existed in 500 AD. Sorry to burst your bubble. An impressive animal with lots to offer but pure? No.

Didn't burst my bubble Angus/Brangus. Just because a breed has changed over time doesn't mean they aren't pure.

That would mean that any time a breed select for anything at anytime, they are no longer pure by your definition.

EVERY breed is then impure by your definition.


Badlands

 

[Badlands]

Schurrnbart:

I guess we must be talking about two different producers in Iowa.

Badlands

 

[Brandonm2]

You can certainly dna test to see if a steer has Hereford or Angus DNA. You will never convince me that you can DNA test a Baldie to see if he is 66% Hereford or 66% Angus though. I am in favor of testing every registration to verify parentage IF it can be done at a reasonable cost.

I don't know enough about it to say that they can tell % of breed in an animal but they can for sure determine what breeds are in the animal and it doesn't cost all that much. It will come down in price also as more and more start to do it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if they will be able to determine % soon if not already.

They test for DNA markers common to animals within that breed. At least in theory, they should be able to tell whether or not a baldie is an Angus x Hereford cross or not. However since they are testing for just the presence of Breed markers, they won't be able to differentiate (by DNA) between a 75% Angus baldie, a 66% Angus baldie, a 50% Angus Baldie, a 34% Angus baldie, and a 25% Angus baldie although the higher the %age Angus the MORE LIKELY that he possesses the Angus DNA markers they look for in the test. My point being that, actually enforcing a 51% Angus rule by DNA testing would be next too impossible. You could identify non-Angus blacks by DNA testing since this is DNA we are talking about, it would not take too many years to identify which Simmental, Limousin, and Gelbvieh bulls are most likely too sire calves which possess the tested for Angus DNA markers (much like they selected for the polled and black genes.

 

[novatech]

WHO CARES?

All this is past history and does nothing for beef improvement.
Stateing what the percentage of angus is, is just one more marketing technique, mentally they want one to assume that angus is better.
Consummers don,t know squat about beef, CAB is absolute proof of this. Most angus breeders don,t have a clue what they are selling and could really care less as long as it brings a better price at the market.

 

[Brandonm2]

WHO CARES?

All this is past history and does nothing for beef improvement.
Stateing what the percentage of angus is, is just one more marketing technique, mentally they want one to assume that angus is better.

Actually, I think this whole industry debate about DNA testing to seek out the non-Angus black cattle to keep them from qualifying for CAB is just another gimic too sell Angus bulls. Commercial cattlemen with black cowherds (who belive that they make more $$ because their calves are black), hear that DNA testing could happen or that they may have to use a Reg. Angus bull too qualify for CAB in the future. The promise of CAB premiums (the carrott) and the threat of their cattle not qualifying (the stick) probably helps stear some ranchers away from buying that black Simm or Lim-Flex or black Gelbvieh. I don't think a DNA testing program is the cure all some think it is; but the threat of DNA testing MAY sell a few more Angus bulls.

Consummers don,t know squat about beef

EXACTLY, but this is steak night we are talking about NOT beanie weanie, tv dinner, taco, or manwich nights. There are MUCH cheaper food stuffs that the consumer can put on their plate than ribeye, strip, filtets, or T-bone steaks. Steak night is not about cheap gut fill. It is about impressing the people at the table. It is about savoring the dining experience. This is the food that people serve on hot dates, formal family dinners, for guests, for anniversaries, for big moments, for their own personal satisfaction. People do not flinch at paying another $5 bucks if they think it means that the event will be the best that it can possibly be. Angus figured this out and created a branded beef program. We can argue whether or not Angus beef or 'Kellogg's frosted flakes' are better than their competition or not; but mentally the consumer thinks that it is. THAT is all that matters.

 

[Badlands]

I'm with you, brandon2.

I don't see how they would DNA test for "Angus" when they currently have trouble identifying some animals within the breed. There are bulls in most sales every year that the owners can't get pinned to the right sire.

Maybe they could use mtDNA. Oh, they can't do that. Most of the Western US cowherd would have Hereford mtDNA and a good percentage of Angus have Holstein mtDNA. Well, I don't know about them having Holstein mtDNA, just that their are "similarities" that suggest Angus is highly related to Holstein. Odd, considering the distance over water to those Islands is 10x farther than the distance to any of the other black breeds right there in the UK. I suspect the Holstien/Angus mtDNA similarity has occured more recently.


Badlands

 

[Dusty Britches]

Just because a breed has changed over time doesn't mean they aren't pure.

Exactly - for example, there are standard poodles, miniature poodles, and giant poodles, but they are all pure poodles. When we breed animals for certain characteristics, specific physical traits will come out and alter the phenotype of the animal. Quarter horses are another example. You have the long lanky horses in the show ring, the foundation stock horse, and the leggy racing horses. They are all pure Quarter Horses, but they've been selectively bred for certain characteristics.

I'd like to think that as hard as the AAA works to promote the breed that they work just as hard to keep the breed pure by tracking registrations.

Second point - I do think there are other breeds that marble better, are more tender, and taste better, but what it comes down to is what does the non-cattleman consumer ask for? The only cattle breed they know of - Angus. Most have heard of the Hereford, but its not the one that comes to mind when they buy steaks or roasts in the grocery store. AAA has done a fantastic job of marketing their breed - which is why we use Registered Angus bulls. Red or Black.

 

[novatech]

Just because a breed has changed over time doesn't mean they aren't pure.

Exactly - for example, there are standard poodles, miniature poodles, and giant poodles, but they are all pure poodles. When we breed animals for certain characteristics, specific physical traits will come out and alter the phenotype of the animal. Quarter horses are another example. You have the long lanky horses in the show ring, the foundation stock horse, and the leggy racing horses. They are all pure Quarter Horses, but they've been selectively bred for certain characteristics.

I'd like to think that as hard as the AAA works to promote the breed that they work just as hard to keep the breed pure by tracking registrations.

Second point - I do think there are other breeds that marble better, are more tender, and taste better, but what it comes down to is what does the non-cattleman consumer ask for? The only cattle breed they know of - Angus. Most have heard of the Hereford, but its not the one that comes to mind when they buy steaks or roasts in the grocery store. AAA has done a fantastic job of marketing their breed - which is why we use Registered Angus bulls. Red or Black.

And there you go. The truth from an angus breeder.
My congrats. you are one of the few.

 

[Brandonm2]

I'm with you, brandon2.

I don't see how they would DNA test for "Angus" when they currently have trouble identifying some animals within the breed. There are bulls in most sales every year that the owners can't get pinned to the right sire.

Maybe they could use mtDNA. Oh, they can't do that. Most of the Western US cowherd would have Hereford mtDNA and a good percentage of Angus have Holstein mtDNA. Well, I don't know about them having Holstein mtDNA, just that their are "similarities" that suggest Angus is highly related to Holstein. Odd, considering the distance over water to those Islands is 10x farther than the distance to any of the other black breeds right there in the UK. I suspect the Holstien/Angus mtDNA similarity has occured more recently.


Badlands

I don't think THAT would be a problem. Today's Angus would be the population they would be looking for markers in NOT 1950's or 1850's Angus so any widespread falsification of papers that MIGHT have occurred back in the late 60s would not be detectable using a test that ASSUMES that today's registered Angus ARE the pure Angus. All the industry DNA test would tell you is that the animal has Angus DNA (as defined by the 2007 Angus assn) in it. It would never tell you with any degree of certainty the percentage of Angus in the calf and I doubt they would be testing for what ELSE might be in the calf in a CAB wide administered test.

 

[WORANCH]

Guest25: "I think what you are not addressing is that the shorthorn or herford or various other breeds would also be revealed in the dna testing. Now thats what scared old riemann. So much so he has left the scene.

Tell you what take a walk out back to the outhouse look down the hole one shine your flash light in the hole what you will see is just what the cab spin is a lot of c---"

That's way out there! CAB never claimed that it's beef was 100% Angus so, by default, the rest is something else. So, your argument that Riemann is unaware of this is about as ridiculous as it gets!

AAA and CAB will continue to improve on it's product and services and you'll eat it and you'll like it.

Now your as full of the same thing that out house hole is. I dont eat angus beef. I wont let their lies go uncontested and will do all i can to see to it that the truth is exsposed.

Just keep them closed opinions instead of seeking the truth about your breeds.

I bet your bank account is plum full of all those angus premiums. Why not take the pennies down tothe local 7-11 and get you a cold drink and reflect back . Thats just about what cab premiums will buy one a cold drink.

Lets see if i can help you equate 200 million in premiums in 28 years 110 million head of cattle about $1.70 per head wow now thats real premiums. No thats real fleecing of the breeder and consumer.

http://cattletoday.com/archive/2007/January/CT809.shtml

 

[ALACOWMAN]

hey this one fell down a few notches. are yall just tired or has it ran its course

 

[*Cowgirl*]

Why'd you drag it back up?

 

[ALACOWMAN]

I'd achieve more by talkin to a tree stump.

You ought to try it its like talking to someone who wants every one else to use credible stats but then beleives anything from the black point of view. ;-)

now thats more like it. i thought surely theres a area yall had'nt touched on

 

[novatech]

I'd achieve more by talkin to a tree stump.

You ought to try it its like talking to someone who wants every one else to use credible stats but then beleives anything from the black point of view. ;-)

We have yet to see any of your credible stats! We don't even know what the heck you raise, besides kids.

Question for everyone: Would the amount of fat in a steak effect it's flavor even, if the steak were very tender? Or, would an extremely lean but extremely tender steak taste better or worse that a steak with a lot more fat? (if you cooked them both the same and the breed was the same)

If you are talking about marbeling the answer is yes. Lean steaks tast best with hinds 57. So you assume because it's black is well marbled. You are wrong period, thats it, just plane ass not write. You cannot look at any old black cow and tell what is inside. I don,t care how many CAB stickers you buy. Just don,t make it true. Marketing is what it is and that is a quote from YOU YOU YOU.

 

[Brandonm2]

I'd achieve more by talkin to a tree stump.

You ought to try it its like talking to someone who wants every one else to use credible stats but then beleives anything from the black point of view. ;-)

We have yet to see any of your credible stats! We don't even know what the heck you raise, besides kids.

If I remember correctly, Guest is our resident Piedmontese afficionado.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Some of you folks are just too passionate about this subject!

If I lived in a milder climate, my attitude about the breed as a whole may be a dit different.

The real problem I have with all the hoopla is that I know a couple of "horse traders" in the cattle business. There are hundreds of credible breeders that have crossed my path and those folks have high integrity. But it only takes one or two to "register" an animal and then pull a switch to something that has a little more size and looks pure. I swear these angus I see now are nothing like the ones I used to see in the 60's.

DNA is not going to do it. Not unless you could go all the way back to the originals. Since you can't dig them out of the ground like they do people, I think you are pretty much toast on trying to prove heredity back to the 60's. You are sort of at the mercy of what you have in the original breeds overseas. I do indeed know about human Y-DNA and the daughters of eve from genealogy research.

All of which doesn't make a hill of beans in the first place. If the consumer is satisfied with the steak they are eating, they are going to buy more of it. Can anyone here taste the different between a 100% angus and a 90% angus?

 

[Brandonm2]

Can anyone here taste the different between a 100% angus and a 90% angus?

Heck, if they have the same marbling and maturity; I can't even TASTE the difference between an Angus, a Hereford, and a Char. Don't tell the public that though.

 

[6M Ranch]

It's pointless to discuss this with guest25. Instead of posting actual verifiable statistics to back up his claims, he cuts down the program, Angus cattle in general, and claims everyone is an idiot, and are part of a huge conspiracy. I'm not sure who this conspiracy benefits, but it must be the hundreds of Angus breeders. I must have made someone mad, because I've never been invited to a single meeting. This isn't rocket science. If you meet these eight carcass specifications, you earn the premium. This is right off the CAB website. No where does it state that the cattle have to have any Angus influence whatsoever. This benefits anyone who qualifies. Fortunately, millions of American consumers are so stupid they don't know that CAB branded meat actually tastes bad, and it's not worth the extra money. I am now praying everyday, that word doesn't get out how amazing guest25's beef tastes.

Word for word from the CAB website:
Eight carcass specifications were developed by CAB to ensure that every carcass earning the Certified Angus Beef ® brand offers consumers the same quality eating experience. To receive the brand cattle must first be at least 51% black-hided and meet these criteria:

Neck hump of less than 2 inches
"A" maturity (9-30 months)
Modest or higher degree of marbling
Medium or better marbling texture
USDA Yield Grade (YG) 3.9 or leaner
Moderately thick or thicker muscling
No capillary ruptures
No dark-cutting characteristics

They have new specifications, but they haven't been put into place yet. They just clarify certain carcass characteristics.