Alright Hobby Boys

[lakading]

Boy that almost hurt, I am sorry if your dim witted and can't keep up with us redneck East Texas Boys.

We

Might

Talk

Real

Slow

but

we

don't

think

slow.

If I ever read a post of yours slowly it is in order to decipher it. Maybe English is a 2nd language for you. I don't know and don't really care. This thread was pretty well on track until you started yapping. What do you say we let it go back to being about cattle. Throw in one more of your "witty" one liner treasures and let's move on. Good day.

 

[sillco]

Regarding the whole land thing. (IMHO)

Example:
- I buy 100 shares of stock for $4,000. I sell that stock after 10 years for $8,000. That stock was an investment that rose in value 100% over the given time frame.
- Do I have any reason to "expense" a portion of that original $4,000 investment against my Wages (that I earn in my day job) over the 10 years that I owned the stock? Can't think of why I would.
- Should I reduce my "day job" earnings by the amount of money I might be able to earn had I chosen a different profession? Can't think of why I would. I make the same amount of money each pay check regardless of what I should have done for a living.

Likewise:
- I buy 80 acres for $40,000. Since the time that my family bought that land, it has risen to be worth about $80,000. That in and of itself is a sufficent return on investment in my opinion.
- For my "labor" of owning and running cows, I have no reason to amortize a portion of the original $40,000 land investment as that is not an economic expense to me.
- Economically, I can spend what I sell my cows for less what it costs to raise them. Accruing some implicit cost of land ownership against that net ecconomic earnings has no bearing on what I have left to spend after the cow sale check arives.


I think there is an argument that perhaps you should allocate your resources using a "highest and best use" type of principle. In that way, it may not make sense to own farmland as an investment. I mean, there are probably more higher producing investments out there than farm land. But that is completely independent of whether I decide to run cows on that land.

I guess there might also be an argument for using an "incremental earnings" approach to cattle. In other words, you only "make" on cows what you earn less what you could say lease out the land for that you are using to run cows. That frankly makes no sense to me, but seems like some on this thread are arguing for that kind of approach.

(IMHO)
I can see no justification for accruing an "expense" in my cost calculation for something that is NOT an economic cost to me. If I own the land, there is no "expense" to running cows on it.

The NCBA has a program developed with Texas A&M and others called SPA. It is a free download on the NCBA web site. It is a very indepth analysis of the cost of cattle operations. Check it out and see what they say regarding cost classifications.
I, on the other hand, don't consider depreation when I calculate my operating plan each year. I have always purchased good used equipment and maintained it well and most often received at least the same amount paid for it when I sell it. Oh, the depreation on my tax return is great, it allows me to "write off" more, therefore saving me taxes. That in itself is a "profit opportunity" through tax saving but, for me, it has little corrulation with reallity.

 

[EIEIO]

Wow CB, did this thread give you an idea of who you should be talking to and who not? Do we need to contact Macon and have this place divided up into a hobby section, full time rancher section, and then a part time rancher section? Heck I thought the beginners board was for anyone who had a cattle question not just for certain folks. I did notice after reading it there were a few folks who did not post to it that I consider people I'd take advise from any day of the week.

FWIW I almost had my figures done for you but was pushing to dang hard on my green crayon (don't want to be just like you and use a red one ) and it broke so now I got to wait for the kids to get home from school and borrow another from them.

Seriously though I'm getting a return closer to the 1/3 mark on every dollar I'm spending right now. Can't at the moment even begin to add up my losses, well actually I have but the CPA won't let me know an exact amount for this year for another couple of weeks. Don't really want to lose on purpose but we just bought this place 2 years ago after selling our ranch in Arkansas and it is in need of lots of new fencing, fertilizer, and other general maintenance. All 40 of my cows are paid for as is all my equipment minus the truck which still has a year to go.

My wife makes very good money so I like a couple of others here look at this ranch as an investment in my future right now rather than a money maker. I'd rather be sinking my money into the farm and getting some of it back than letting the government get all of it. At the moment operating in the red rather than the black actually works best for us. May sound silly but we pay more in taxes than most folks in this country make in a year.

Unless your someone who was given a place or you or your spouse makes good money, or I guess if your just plain rich and can pay cash for a start up operation I just don't see how anyone can start out expecting to make a profit any time soon.

Ain't this "hobby" talk getting a bit old? It's almost like your trying to conduct some kind of witch hunt but I don't think you understand your about the only one who gives a rats behind who ranches as a hobby and who don't. People are here for questions and advise. I know you like to "stir the pot" as you put it and I don't think this thread got folks as riled as you would have liked and it even had some great advise given but at some point enough is just enough don't ya' think? Or would it be best in your mind if everyone just split off into little groups. Got a feeling without the hobby and part timers there would not be many folks posting here. I ranch full time but usually have kids from age 3-10 with me when I am working so I am limited sometimes in what I can and can't do but the kids all enjoy being outside and I'm pretty dang proud when even my 3 yo. tries to "help" me.

Take care,

J

 

[Caustic Burno]

Boy that almost hurt, I am sorry if your dim witted and can't keep up with us redneck East Texas Boys.

We

Might

Talk

Real

Slow

but

we

don't

think

slow.

If I ever read a post of yours slowly it is in order to decipher it. Maybe English is a 2nd language for you. I don't know and don't really care. This thread was pretty well on track until you started yapping. What do you say we let it go back to being about cattle. Throw in one more of your "witty" one liner treasures and let's move on. Good day.

Hey Crowder what is the best dog food you got, I need to feed this potlicker maybe he will learn to hunt, never did like a dog following me in the woods. Has caused some to take that last walk over the hill. Maybe I will just drop him off at Texans.

 

[lakading]

Good one. Can we get back on task now?

 

[Caustic Burno]

ALL I know is the land I purchased a few years back will cost me nothing after I get done with the next cutting of timber and the income from this timber has allowed me to purchase equipment and facility items for my farm and all this has been a tax write off and I have been getting the majority of my tax money back for the last 3 years.

Holland, the same thing is going on in this area with the Barnett Shale. Some land is bringing $300 a month, per acre. Its best to keep land, no matter what. You can't lose with land. There are lots of folks around who broke up their inherited farms and sold it, who are now crying. They made a few nickels on the real estate but seriously lost out in the long haul.

We could all sell out, take the profits on cattle, take the profits on land, deal with the heartbreak of seeing the farm become a sub-division, or be called a hobby boy. I think I like the hobby boy title just fine.

Boogie you can loose your butt on land you may not be old enough to remember when all the Savings and loans collapsed in the 70's. Lot people bought land in this area and lost it to the government sold in public auction. Seen 60 acres right here go for 15,000 bucks at auction, the government recalled the loans and a lot of people couldn't pay off the final notice. You can loose in land, the economy can fall apart tomorrow has before and will again.
It is kinda like a millionare neighbor ask me one time what one of his horses was worth, I said about 400 bucks he went to jumping up and down hollering thats a 40,000 dollar horse. I told him no its not it is only worth what you can get for it right now at the auction barn. Something only has value to the extent someone is willing to pay.

 

[eric]

Right now with interest rates high its not a significant amount but when you could put your money in a CD and get 10% on a Hundred thousand bucks thats 10k. Alot of people are hard pressed to make 10% on cattle.

Just curious, where are you getting 10% on a $100K CD? PM if necessary.

 

[Crowderfarms]

Boy that almost hurt, I am sorry if your dim witted and can't keep up with us redneck East Texas Boys.

We

Might

Talk

Real

Slow

but

we

don't

think

slow.

If I ever read a post of yours slowly it is in order to decipher it. Maybe English is a 2nd language for you. I don't know and don't really care. This thread was pretty well on track until you started yapping. What do you say we let it go back to being about cattle. Throw in one more of your "witty" one liner treasures and let's move on. Good day.

Hey Crowder what is the best dog food you got, I need to feed this potlicker maybe he will learn to hunt, never did like a dog following me in the woods. Has caused some to take that last walk over the hill. Maybe I will just drop him off at Texans.

Potlickers will always be potlickers. They wont hunt and will eat you out of house and home. Bullet always worked the best.Even on one of them few bad Walker's.

 

[S.R.R.]

Boy that almost hurt, I am sorry if your dim witted and can't keep up with us redneck East Texas Boys.

We

Might

Talk

Real

Slow

but

we

don't

think

slow.

If I ever read a post of yours slowly it is in order to decipher it. Maybe English is a 2nd language for you. I don't know and don't really care. This thread was pretty well on track until you started yapping. What do you say we let it go back to being about cattle. Throw in one more of your "witty" one liner treasures and let's move on. Good day.

Hey Crowder what is the best dog food you got, I need to feed this potlicker maybe he will learn to hunt, never did like a dog following me in the woods. Has caused some to take that last walk over the hill. Maybe I will just drop him off at Texans.

Potlickers will always be potlickers. They wont hunt and will eat you out of house and home. Bullet always worked the best.Even on one of them few bad Walker's.

A Walker that wont hunt :?: :?: You got to be kiddin!!!!!!

 

[CowCop]

~

I just popped in to see the newest postings of "cow cost" and am a bit dissapointed that there are not more listings.

Was looking forward to more "how to cut costs" ideas too.

This is a great thread.

Always learn something when everyone participates.

Get those pencils moving and put on your thinking caps.

Stay positive.

 

[Central Fl Cracker]

~

I just popped in to see the newest postings of "cow cost" and am a bit dissapointed that there are not more listings.

Was looking forward to more "how to cut costs" ideas too.

This is a great thread.

Always learn something when everyone participates.

Get those pencils moving and put on your thinking caps.

Stay positive.

I agree CowCop maybe start a new thread on how to save money on a cattle operation.

 

[redfornow]

I ranch full time but usually have kids from age 3-10 with me when I am working so I am limited sometimes in what I can and can't do but the kids all enjoy being outside and I'm pretty dang proud when even my 3 yo. tries to "help" me.

Take care,

J

I think you got much of it figured out there EIEIO
My little girl had to write a peom for school, went like this:


I am a girl and a farmer,
I hear a baby calf, I see cows
I want a baby bull of my own,
I am a girl and a farmer
I try to be the best
I hope to be the coolest mom,
But, I am a girl and a farmer.

I make alittle money doing this, but at the end of the day little things like that poem make a dad think he just may be on the right path.

Just this last week she had splinters cut out of her hand from hay, saw me pull a backward calf and and helped bury a freak of nature (125 lb gaint) on the back lot all without shedding a tear.
This is a wonderful way of life, and to me its about much more than just money.
Ya all have a great one this has been a good read
MD

 

[C HOLLAND]

Ain't this "hobby" talk getting a bit old? It's almost like your trying to conduct some kind of witch hunt but I don't think you understand your about the only one who gives a rats behind who ranches as a hobby and who don't. People are here for questions and advise. I know you like to "stir the pot" as you put it and I don't think this thread got folks as riled as you would have liked and it even had some great advise given but at some point enough is just enough don't ya' think? Or would it be best in your mind if everyone just split off into little groups. Got a feeling without the hobby and part timers there would not be many folks posting here. I ranch full time but usually have kids from age 3-10 with me when I am working so I am limited sometimes in what I can and can't do but the kids all enjoy being outside and I'm pretty dang proud when even my 3 yo. tries to "help" me.

Take care,

J

AMEN on who gives a rats behind

good post EIEIO, and I like your nic name, good one

 

[Caustic Burno]

Ain't this "hobby" talk getting a bit old? It's almost like your trying to conduct some kind of witch hunt but I don't think you understand your about the only one who gives a rats behind who ranches as a hobby and who don't. People are here for questions and advise. I know you like to "stir the pot" as you put it and I don't think this thread got folks as riled as you would have liked and it even had some great advise given but at some point enough is just enough don't ya' think? Or would it be best in your mind if everyone just split off into little groups. Got a feeling without the hobby and part timers there would not be many folks posting here. I ranch full time but usually have kids from age 3-10 with me when I am working so I am limited sometimes in what I can and can't do but the kids all enjoy being outside and I'm pretty dang proud when even my 3 yo. tries to "help" me.

Take care,

J

AMEN on who gives a rats behind

good post EIEIO, and I like your nic name, good one

Ok we can change it to Ricky Rodeo, Rexall Ranger or Rhinestone Cowboy which would you prefer.
I don't care if your Hobby oh sorry Ricky,Partime or fulltime, just quite pretending you are Charles Goodnight( not you personally C holland). Secondly you can't be to serious about cattle until you start operating it as a business. You don't operate your 401K to loose money do you. I would have to go back and dig out the old article from the Cattlemens magizine the vast majority of operations today are ran by parttimers.

 

[Ryder]

ALL I know is the land I purchased a few years back will cost me nothing after I get done with the next cutting of timber and the income from this timber has allowed me to purchase equipment and facility items for my farm and all this has been a tax write off and I have been getting the majority of my tax money back for the last 3 years.

Holland, the same thing is going on in this area with the Barnett Shale. Some land is bringing $300 a month, per acre. Its best to keep land, no matter what. You can't lose with land. There are lots of folks around who broke up their inherited farms and sold it, who are now crying. They made a few nickels on the real estate but seriously lost out in the long haul.

We could all sell out, take the profits on cattle, take the profits on land, deal with the heartbreak of seeing the farm become a sub-division, or be called a hobby boy. I think I like the hobby boy title just fine.

Boogie you can loose your butt on land you may not be old enough to remember when all the Savings and loans collapsed in the 70's. Lot people bought land in this area and lost it to the government sold in public auction. Seen 60 acres right here go for 15,000 bucks at auction, the government recalled the loans and a lot of people couldn't pay off the final notice. You can loose in land, the economy can fall apart tomorrow has before and will again.
It is kinda like a millionare neighbor ask me one time what one of his horses was worth, I said about 400 bucks he went to jumping up and down hollering thats a 40,000 dollar horse. I told him no its not it is only worth what you can get for it right now at the auction barn. Something only has value to the extent someone is willing to pay.

Caustic is 100 per cent correct. I can show you land right now that was $2500 or more per acre that you would be doing good to get $1500 for now. Dairy farmers went out of business in droves and land prices went with them. I have seen the same thing in city real estate a few years back A friend of mine was building apartment buildings and he figured he couldn't lose because no matter what happened people would always need a place to live. It fell down around his ears and he lost everything including his home.

The belief that land will always go up because they are not making any more is just not true. The supply may not go up, but what people can or will pay can sure come down.

The old saying, "No tree grows to the sky" is still true. If it goes up, it will go down. This is true of any market.

 

[Central Fl Cracker]

Causco quote
"Boogie you can loose your butt on land you may not be old enough to remember when all the Savings and loans collapsed in the 70's. Lot people bought land in this area and lost it to the government sold in public auction. Seen 60 acres right here go for 15,000 bucks at auction, the government recalled the loans and a lot of people couldn't pay off the final notice. You can loose in land, the economy can fall apart tomorrow has before and will again.
It is kinda like a millionare neighbor ask me one time what one of his horses was worth, I said about 400 bucks he went to jumping up and down hollering thats a 40,000 dollar horse. I told him no its not it is only worth what you can get for it right now at the auction barn. Something only has value to the extent someone is willing to pay."

I remember the 70's early 80' very well lost every real estate asset due to S & L's collaspe. I left town with my new bride with just our clothes on our back and started all over again. I worked my butt off and now I am 50 years old, money in the bank, great job, great wife and kids but just remember what goes up usually comes down real fast. Real estate here goes for $ 10 to $15,000 per ac. and that is way out of town.

 

[backhoeboogie]

Thanks for everyone's land advice. Mine is not hocked. If the bottom does indeed fall out, I'll be buying more land. That would be the best time to do so.

These gas prices are going to fall too. Once they tap all of this shale, supply is going to curb demand and prices will fall. I am hoping to get some nickels while the getting is good.

 

[TheLazyM]

Just got a chance to pop in. this nice weather brought alot of work to be done. i decided to go ahead and get my fields bushhoged and cleaned up and get my fertilizer out to be ready for the rain thats on the way. i'm 2 weeks ahead of schedule this year i hope things keep going this well.
To C.B's question i bought my ladys for $500 each so i spent $10,000 at 1 time. right now i have $167 in them each. that price should not get much more. no more than say $210. all my ladys but two have already dropped their calves and i have'nt lost any. the most i have spent on a cow a year of any given year in the last 5 years is $280. that was my first year. God has things changed.
Can i add that i am a proud "hobbie farmer". To tell you the truth i would hate to depend on farming to make my living. The farmers have always taking the shaft. and now again the house is talking "AGAIN" about killing the farm programs. but yet all we can do is log on to a website and argue about the rightious place of farmers and hobbie farmers. i not going to defend land prices and all that other stuff. me and my wife want land we where both raised in the country so we bought our land. then it sets in. "all this wide open space" so we done something with it. sorry if that hurts anybodies feelings, but i am going to keep doing it, and maybe me and my wife might have a nestegg to retire on. i did'nt trust 401k programs it seem like it was a good thing too. i try to conduct myself as a busness man. i will admit that i have fallen short at times and made bad decisions, but i learned from it.
i dont think there is any thing wrong with banning together and bettering ourselfs. what is this "true rancher" and "hobbist" kick? i dont understand. does this mean that i'm lower than dirt or that my product is less grade than a "ranchers". am i some how poisioning the market with my product? am i some how taking away from yall "ranchers" that should be your's? i just dont understand.....

 

[C HOLLAND]

The old saying, "No tree grows to the sky" is still true. If it goes up, it will go down. This is true of any market.

Oh yeah, I am re-planting the portion of my property in trees that are not suited for pasture, and it was studied by a registered forester from Auburn and I am getting a plan worked up for restoring the wet lands to be improved from the previous owners. I am not just robbing the land and selling it off after I reap the rewards from the timber. I plan to pass this along to my son and his children. I am also working up a plan setup by Auburn Univ and there AG dept on cross fencing and cross rotational grazing. I have more planning into this than most big cattle men. Most of them just turn the cows lose on 200-500 acres and hope they have enough to eat. I can raise more cattle per acre than one that doesnt use this practice. the old cowboy way is not always the correct way of doing things, I think we can all learn something from each other and I thought that this forum was here for that purpose. I don't know anything about how Caustic operates and don't question his ability on what he does, but it seems alot of people on here think that their way is the only way.

 

[Central Fl Cracker]

C Holland Quote
"I am also working up a plan setup by Auburn Univ and there AG dept on cross fencing and cross rotational grazing."
Is there programs that pay for owners to cross fence?

P.S.
I built a huge College Housing project in Auburn years ago and loved the people there.