I have a day job but I piddle with a cow/calf on my parents farm, I will have any where from 10 to 20 head. I don't see how anyone can make anything with less than 50- 75 head. Each year I will sell some calves and then add up my expenses and be in the red or about even every year. I love it and just like to see it is why I do it I guess. I guess its more of a hobby than anything else. Maybe I am doing something wrong but I don't think so after reading posts in here it seems most take way better care of theirs than I do mine. Do any of you run around 20 head and still have enough to take the wife to a fancy dinner after the bills are paid?
My operation is a hobby
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NO 
Cattle is a volume game. Graph it and you can see. The capital expenditures and land (if you count it) will kill and hopes of profit at low volume. Then if by some chance you end up with some blue after that... put labor on it and you will for sure be back in the red.
Cattle is a volume game. Graph it and you can see. The capital expenditures and land (if you count it) will kill and hopes of profit at low volume. Then if by some chance you end up with some blue after that... put labor on it and you will for sure be back in the red.
Son of Butch
Well-known member
Not unless you consider a drive through window fancy. Or dip into reserves from another income source.Jackson":1abio04b said:
But hopefully you can go to your freezer from time to time and grill a nice steak to share with her.
M-5
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Yes, If it don't pay for itself I can do something else to waste money on. Its really not that hard if projected revenue is 15k
don't spend but 14900.00 and then you have 100.00 bucks to take mama out to supper.
don't spend but 14900.00 and then you have 100.00 bucks to take mama out to supper.
Nesikep
Well-known member
To just stay alive with 20 head (I've got 22), you have to pinch every penny and work your butt off just as if you had 200 head... For me it's one of those thing that I couldn't imagine farming without them, the place would be desolate without them bawling for food every time I came in the yard, so I guess I'm stuck with them.
On the other hand, I can look out my window and see something I enjoy, often get a good laugh at their antics, they do put good food on my table, and I don't have to go out and spend $30 on popcorn and a movie.. It's all about what you want in life, and this is enough for me.
Welcome to CT too
On the other hand, I can look out my window and see something I enjoy, often get a good laugh at their antics, they do put good food on my table, and I don't have to go out and spend $30 on popcorn and a movie.. It's all about what you want in life, and this is enough for me.
Welcome to CT too
cow pollinater
Well-known member
I made money when I was running 20 some odd head. Your input costs are higher due to economy of scale but it can still be done. 20 is actually a really nice number because it justifies spending some money on a good bull that moves you forward and or is enough to get an AI tech interested in working with you. Anything less and you either get killed buying more bull than you can use or you pay a bunch for AI work and whatever doesn't take stays open because you can't justify a bull for one or two.
CP is spot on. I run 25 currently, (and yes its a hobby). You can make a little something to take mama out on, but you do have to be a penny pinching mizer and constantly seek opportunities to reduce cost. It was very easy to turn a profit in the last 2 years, the challenge becomes turning a profit when the market swoops down. I'm also in agreement with what dash posted. If they can't pay their own way, then I shouldn't be doing it. My girls pay their own way (don't rob from any other income sources). They have their own account and it has to be managed closely, but it can be done. Good luck, welcome aboard and enjoy! Lots of real cattle smart folks here with lots of insight to share.
Jackson":1m3sw02q said:
I have around 20 head, and yes, I make some money. It haven't bought a mansion yet, but I make money. I think it depends on what your expenses are in comparison to your income. Personally, the 130 acres has been in the family forever and is paid for, tractor is 20 years old and paid for, etc. I have very little expense. I would post my expenses, but I'm not interested in some telling me I don't calculate it correctly and that it has to be more than that.
On the other hand, if I had new tractors and every piece of equipment known to man like i see all around me, I'm sure i would not make money.
It's hard to justify certain things, with so few head:
$3200 squeeze chute $3200/25 head= $128.....$128 / 5 years= $25.60
$3200 squeeze chute. $3200 /75 head = $42. $42 / 5 years = $8.40
It's kind of a no brainer. If you've got 75 cows, you can work them in a squeeze for $8.40 a piece. If you've got 25 cows, it's $25.60.
Same logic applies to almost everything you need. It's hard to justify having equipment and facilities for 25 head. It's hard to run 25 head without equipment and facilities.
Work em in a medina, and go for the pay day. It goes slow, and it's a bit dangerous. You gotta weigh out what you want to do, and what your goals are.
To answer your question, it'll cost you $450 a year to own a cow. The amount you spend over that is at the expense of your profit.
$3200 squeeze chute $3200/25 head= $128.....$128 / 5 years= $25.60
$3200 squeeze chute. $3200 /75 head = $42. $42 / 5 years = $8.40
It's kind of a no brainer. If you've got 75 cows, you can work them in a squeeze for $8.40 a piece. If you've got 25 cows, it's $25.60.
Same logic applies to almost everything you need. It's hard to justify having equipment and facilities for 25 head. It's hard to run 25 head without equipment and facilities.
Work em in a medina, and go for the pay day. It goes slow, and it's a bit dangerous. You gotta weigh out what you want to do, and what your goals are.
To answer your question, it'll cost you $450 a year to own a cow. The amount you spend over that is at the expense of your profit.
Just to throw another chip out there. The right 25 cows, could easily be more profitable than a run of the mill herd of 35. 25 calves that top the market for the size, and growed good, could easily gross close to what 35 that are not what the market is demanding would bring.
Nesikep
Well-known member
While the math is good, I don't see the need for a $3200 squeeze chute for 25 cows.. While bells and whistles are nice, but an automatic catch and hydraulics aren't needed for a small operation.Bigfoot":2cv233vq said:
A decent headgate should suffice for 99% of your needs... and if you amortizing it over 5 years may be good for the tax man, but that's not real life.. it should last 20 years...
All I have is a wooden head gate.. I've used it for about 3 cows in the last 7 years
Tractors and haying equipment are the same story.. a cab with AC, 4wd, etc are nice, but there's lots of cheaper options out there.. I have lots of tractors, and each one has it's chores, so I use the right unit for the job.. I don't overwork the smaller stuff, and don't put useless hours on the bigger ones. My baler is from 1965 and I'll keep it going for a long time yet
boondocks
Well-known member
I prefer to think of myself as a lousy farmer rather than a content hobbyist. Given our revenues versus expenses, at some point we will see if uncle sam agrees...
Actually, with start-up costs, I don't see how anyone has a profit the first few years, unless your cows landed from the sky (not that Sky) and you were given the land and equipment...Add trying to set fence into rock and whooeee...
Odd factors affect it too though---our herd grew somewhat quickly (from tiny to small) because we got all heifers for awhile. So no sales the first 2 years. Now we are getting some steers and doing some culling, which helps the old balance sheet. We have also given up our irrational attempts to create pasture where ma nature intended only rocks and thickets to grow.
Actually, with start-up costs, I don't see how anyone has a profit the first few years, unless your cows landed from the sky (not that Sky) and you were given the land and equipment...Add trying to set fence into rock and whooeee...
Odd factors affect it too though---our herd grew somewhat quickly (from tiny to small) because we got all heifers for awhile. So no sales the first 2 years. Now we are getting some steers and doing some culling, which helps the old balance sheet. We have also given up our irrational attempts to create pasture where ma nature intended only rocks and thickets to grow.
We've been in the commercial business for over 36 years. When we bought the ranch we are currently on, land around us was selling for 260 to 350 an acre...Now that everything is paid for, running at full capacity of 300 mother cows, we do good with one employee to help us. I see people around us with smaller herds and how they make money is by just doing nothing. Plop out some cows on some lease land, or grandpa's place and harvest the calves when they need money. Sometimes they dont even have a trailer. Had one guy ask if we could round up his cows and haul them. Asked how many he had and he said, I dont know.. While checking cows yesterday, i saw a big brangus bull in a pasture i know there are no cows. Coming back, he was out on the road talking smack to another bull across a fence. I'm guessing this bull probably belongs to someone with a few cows who never checks them miles from there. THey'll come out in a few weeks and wonder where their bull went. Most of this happened after the big jump in calf prices. Now that prices are down, these people have just lost interest. So much money was spent to get into the cattle business. For us, the prices are still high. Wasnt long ago a good calf brought 500, but most these people banked on 1500...
I'm going to guess if you're just starting out and have to pay todays land prices, its gonna be hard to make a living with cattle. I dont know how anyone could if they have to buy land first...Land here is over 2000 now and we live in a cheaper land area..no way we'd ever be able to buy the place we have at that price and make money with cows, we'd have to do something else, like grow pot..(at one time it was grown here by the previous owners ranch hands...lol)
I'm going to guess if you're just starting out and have to pay todays land prices, its gonna be hard to make a living with cattle. I dont know how anyone could if they have to buy land first...Land here is over 2000 now and we live in a cheaper land area..no way we'd ever be able to buy the place we have at that price and make money with cows, we'd have to do something else, like grow pot..(at one time it was grown here by the previous owners ranch hands...lol)
Someone mentioned it cost $450 a year to support a cow, and I believe I've heard some people state it even higher. What exactly goes into that figure? Is it things directly related to the cow like feed, mineral, etc, or is it total expenses for farm upkeep. Honestly, I don't have that much per cow if I count total expenses for the farm.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
Fertilizer $100.
Hay $120.
Vet. and med $50.
Seed $40.
Feed $50.
Mineral $15.
Fencing, fuel and maintenance is another good chunk of change also. I didn't include any taxes, insurance, or equipment. I enjoy screwing with cattle... most of the time, but they are expensive. If I break even I'm good. My head gate is almost 30 years old, it's a WW with swinging gates. It's a pos in some folks mind, but I like it.
Hay $120.
Vet. and med $50.
Seed $40.
Feed $50.
Mineral $15.
Fencing, fuel and maintenance is another good chunk of change also. I didn't include any taxes, insurance, or equipment. I enjoy screwing with cattle... most of the time, but they are expensive. If I break even I'm good. My head gate is almost 30 years old, it's a WW with swinging gates. It's a pos in some folks mind, but I like it.
True Grit Farms
Well-known member
It was just an example to show the law of diminishing marginal returns. Point being you can't have much equipment and facilities for 25 head.[/quote]
Why not? Is there a law against it or something? I like equipment.
Why not? Is there a law against it or something? I like equipment.
M-5
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When I really started to get a few head I had cash to buy a small herd , I did the same thing again a few yrs later. All my stuff was and is paid for . it's an investment and I run it tighter than those that have hundreds of head. I can assure you my p&l has a higher margin of profit than most large ranches. Now today I'm fixing to change my situation because a parcel of land next to me is for sale. I'm gonna buy it. It's more than I want to pay but not having to worry about new neighbors expanding what I do will be another investment but my cost of doing business is increasing dramatically
True Grit Farms":3q6t62rl said:
yep. it all adds up quick. I am going to look into ways to cut some corners and costs but I don't think it will make too much a difference. I guess I don't do it for the money, but it would be nice to turn a profit, even if a small one. Maybe I should buy some dairy cows and a portable milker.
