A little bit of Hereford history in Uruguay

[HerefordSire]

:lol2: :nod: :roll: :???: :?

Most old buildings that are still standing have a strong, well built roof and a good sound foundation. Without those two things they break down over time. It's the same with cattle.

:idea: :roll: :clap: :compute: :drink:

Hewston......come in.....your fading away...Roger.... niner one five seven eighty eight niner two four two...come in.....

Are you referring to the 19th century log cabins still standing inm your neck of the woods or the 4000 year old pyramids which use a different roof structure?

 

[HerefordSire]

I am thinking there is a more naturalistic and positive reason why sway backed bovines are dominant

Who, besides you, have decided sway backs are dominant?

It is very peculiar how you take ideas out of context on a regular occassion. Compare the next three words of your words and the actual original sentence of mine as show below:

"I am thinking there is a more naturalistic and positive reason why sway backed bovines are dominant, if they are, and the weaker bovines could be the non-swayed back bovine."

It appears you are biased and trying to convince other breeders of your way of improving mother nature's results. You ways may be accurate indeed. Where is the scientific evidence?

 

[RD-Sam]

Sway backs have a couple of problems, first is the back breaks down from the weight, this the big dip in the back. A sway backed animal also requires more energy to travel, they roll in the mid section when they move, thus expending more energy and using up calories. Watch two bulls of equal size move, you will notice the bull with the very straight topline move in a very straight line and moves with little or no effort, while the sway backed bull will roll side to side, using up energy and tiring easily. Where this would have a drastic affect would be where an animal has to travel to find food, the animal that uses the least amount of energy to find food will be the most healthy and strongest, thus a greater chance of surviving.

Question then:

Why does mother nature allow such a trait to occur? To keep populations under control? The strongest particpants of a species are the ones that are left to breed after all the deaths. I am thinking there is a more naturalistic and positive reason why sway backed bovines are dominant, if they are, and the weaker bovines could be the non-swayed back bovine. For example, Einstein did not have the masculine mating attractiveness and appearance of an average looking male. However, the probability of him and his ancestors surviving in our world is far greater than mine enven though I am ugly. Maybe a sway backed bovine has less pressure on their joints when bending down to eat forage or when reaching up to grab forage during the off season grass growing session. There are countless ways in which a sway backed animal may survive longer than an average bovine just because mother nature is smarter than all of us combined.

The problem is not mother nature with all animals, it is man, he has interferred with the breeding of just about every species, and ruined many of them in the process. Mother nature always culls the weak, man coddles them and looks at an animal and says they are cute, so they breed it. The problem is lack of understanding about the structure of animals and how they work. Doc being a joint man could probably clear this up better for you.

If you want to do a test, put two bulls of equal size and equal breedings out in very harsh conditions where they have to travel for food, I think you will find at the end of a year or so, the animal with the strong topline will be in much better shape.

If you want to talk about ease in foraging, I would think a roach backed animal could forage better than a sway backed one, but it wouldn't travel well.

 

[KNERSIE]

It appears you are biased

Aren't we all? If I am asked specifically for MY opinion, should I give anything but MY biased opinion?

and trying to convince other breeders of your way of improving mother nature's results.

Everyone can follow their heart's desire, if you want to breed frame 9, trait leaders in every trait, dark red with dark pigmented skin, big BW (so breeders can only use cows out of your genepool to add value), swaybacked descendants of Catalina 24H with the added value of Online 122L with a healthy dose of linebred Prospector blood (you do know that 3008 is a descendant of this line?) you can do so without me interfering. I'll just say good luck.

You ways may be accurate indeed. Where is the scientific evidence?

You are free to re-invent the wheel if you like, you may even go from the square wheel to a triangle (to eliminate one bump) to eventually get to the best design, but in the meanwhile I'll just use the current round one.

 

[Herefords.US]

It appears you are biased and trying to convince other breeders of your way of improving mother nature's results.

Gee, HS, here's a newsflash for ya'! Some cattle breeders aren't still stumbling around for answers, but already have an "ideal" in mind that they are breeding toward. I don't think I've ever met a learned cattle breeder that wasn't biased, many times to the point of amusement!

Quoting Kit Pharo - "I may not always be right, but I'm never in doubt!"

George

 

[RD-Sam]

It appears you are biased and trying to convince other breeders of your way of improving mother nature's results.

Gee, HS, here's a newsflash for ya'! Some cattle breeders aren't still stumbling around for answers, but already have an "ideal" in mind that they are breeding toward. I don't think I've ever met a learned cattle breeder that wasn't biased, many times to the point of amusement!

Quoting Kit Pharo - "I may not always be right, but I'm never in doubt!"

George

That's funny! :lol2:

 

[HerefordSire]

The problem is not mother nature with all animals, it is man, he has interferred with the breeding of just about every species, and ruined many of them in the process. Mother nature always culls the weak, man coddles them and looks at an animal and says they are cute, so they breed it. The problem is lack of understanding about the structure of animals and how they work. Doc being a joint man could probably clear this up better for you.

If you want to do a test, put two bulls of equal size and equal breedings out in very harsh conditions where they have to travel for food, I think you will find at the end of a year or so, the animal with the strong topline will be in much better shape.

If you want to talk about ease in foraging, I would think a roach backed animal could forage better than a sway backed one, but it wouldn't travel well.

First of all, please show the evidence there is a sway back issue....I will wait patiently. Secondly, Lorenzo's breeding appears to be superior to South African or American breeding (especially the Red Angus bull) and he is the one asking the question, not I....what he is doing wrong. If you are recommending what he should change, simply provide the evidence so he can make up his mind. If you don't have any evidence he is breeding incorrectly and there is a possibility you could be incorrect, don't you think it could be very expensive for Lorenzo to start culling based upon opinion and no facts when he is more successful than us?

 

[RD-Sam]

I like the red angus bull except I think he needs more length of leg. I don't like the sway backed animals just like many others have stated. Whether or not he should change his breeding program is up to him. His cattle obviously have some good traits, if they were mine I would just do some fine tuning to suite what I like, and what I think is correct.

 

[HerefordSire]

Knersie...In my opinion, you have the second best looking Herefords I have seen posted by members on these boards, which by the way, are very few. You have excellent insight into animal husbandry based upon what I have read thus far. I, on the other hand, am not in the same league you are in. This is obvious. Additionally, you offer a voice generally agreed upon by the board masses, almost like you are a politician or a saleman trying to pitch goods in return for a vote. This is why I used the term "biased" as it was my way of warning readers of the difference of someone providing facts and non-facts. We are not trying to reinvent the wheel as you make it sound. On the contrary, we are trying to produce the best product we can by using all the information known and not known. Your reply about the wheel invention makes it seem like noone will ever discover new information. In my opinion, I have yet to read words posted on this board to encourage Lorenzo to change his breeding objectives. Of course, he may agree with the board concensus and change his successful breeding philosophy, which may be good for him or destructive. I would encourage Lorenzo to hold his five carded straight flush hand he was dealt until someone with evidence arrives.

 

[Herefords.US]

Your reply about the wheel invention makes it seem like noone will ever discover new information.

Structural faults that affect the longevity and functionality of a brood cow or herd bull is not NEW information.

If you've ever seen a mature bull whose joints were swollen because they were "post legged". Or a cow whose "sway back" resulted in her becoming a down cow from being rebred. Or seen the difficult births resulting from using a bull that was wing-shouldered, you would have witnessed the harmful effects of these faults firsthand.

And you wouldn't need an extensive university study to tell you that these faults are not desirable to have in your herd.

George

 

[KNERSIE]

Knersie...In my opinion, you have the second best looking Herefords I have seen posted by members on these boards, which by the way, are very few.

Just out of curiosity who has the best in your opinion? Personally I don't even think I have the best looking herefords on the boards.

You have excellent insight into animal husbandry based upon what I have read thus far. I, on the other hand, am not in the same league you are in. This is obvious.

Everyone has to learn, in the process you have to ask questions and question the status quo, but it makes no sense to argue against common sense and question things that have been proven over and over again. By all means think outside the box, but be open to knowledge gained by others through the centuries

Additionally, you offer a voice generally agreed upon by the board masses, almost like you are a politician or a saleman trying to pitch goods in return for a vote.

I never knew there was an election due on CT, never even thought there was a popularity vote. If you stay a member of this forum long enough the bullshiters soon show themselves and the "board masses" generally don't agree with them. You have to decide whether to fight or join, figuratively speaking.

This is why I used the term "biased" as it was my way of warning readers of the difference of someone providing facts and non-facts.

Thanks the "board masses" have been warned, they can now decide whether my posts are fact or BS.

We are not trying to reinvent the wheel as you make it sound.

You mean there is more than one of you?

On the contrary, we are trying to produce the best product we can by using all the information known and not known. Your reply about the wheel invention makes it seem like noone will ever discover new information.

On the contrary, no one ever won a prize for finding something out for the second time. Lots of research have been done, lots of knowledge gained through the years, lots of peasant wisdom that isn't easily quantifiable, you can use and discard that as you like, there is just no point arguing with facts.

In my opinion, I have yet to read words posted on this board to encourage Lorenzo to change his breeding objectives.

Lorenzo is the owner of an AI company, why drag him into this?

Of course, he may agree with the board concensus and change his successful breeding philosophy, which may be good for him or destructive. I would encourage Lorenzo to hold his five carded straight flush hand he was dealt until someone with evidence arrives.

Still don't see what Lorenzo has to do with our disagreements?

 

[3waycross]

This thread is degerating into one of the DUMBEST arguments I have ever seen. Why not move on to someting more constructive? Like Scrotal measurements, heck we're all concerned about that. :frowns:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Natural selection, survial of the fittest, what was the last breed of cattle like that??

 

[3waycross]

Natural selection, survial of the fittest, what was the last breed of cattle like that??

Longhorn and we all know what a premium they bring at the sale barn.

 

[HerefordSire]

It appears you are biased and trying to convince other breeders of your way of improving mother nature's results.

Gee, HS, here's a newsflash for ya'! Some cattle breeders aren't still stumbling around for answers, but already have an "ideal" in mind that they are breeding toward. I don't think I've ever met a learned cattle breeder that wasn't biased, many times to the point of amusement!

Quoting Kit Pharo - "I may not always be right, but I'm never in doubt!"

George

Thanks for the news flash George. I appreciate reading speculations why a group of breeders believe a sway backed bovine is not the 'ideal' breeding target......or why the small head on the recently presented red angus bull with the big rump may not be the 'ideal' breeding target.....or any speculative short coming in any bovine believed to be an 'ideal' breeding target. Can we agree these comments posted here about the negative sway back traits are purely speculation and no facts are being presented?

 

[HerefordSire]

I like the red angus bull except I think he needs more length of leg. I don't like the sway backed animals just like many others have stated. Whether or not he should change his breeding program is up to him. His cattle obviously have some good traits, if they were mine I would just do some fine tuning to suite what I like, and what I think is correct.

I prefer larger frame sizes myself mainly because of the physics inherent in mechanical leverage. It is encouraging to read an independent thinker, like yourself, that likes more leg. Based upon what I am reading here, many sway-backed animals may not sell, or at the least, could be discounted. Other than possible lack of buying demand, I see no reason for me to breed a straight-back other than trying to win a show and Lorenzo appears to have a show winner with a swayed-back.

 

[HerefordSire]

Your reply about the wheel invention makes it seem like noone will ever discover new information.

Structural faults that affect the longevity and functionality of a brood cow or herd bull is not NEW information.

If you've ever seen a mature bull whose joints were swollen because they were "post legged". Or a cow whose "sway back" resulted in her becoming a down cow from being rebred. Or seen the difficult births resulting from using a bull that was wing-shouldered, you would have witnessed the harmful effects of these faults firsthand.

And you wouldn't need an extensive university study to tell you that these faults are not desirable to have in your herd.

George

Are you implying the reason structural faults currently exist is because some breeders either disregard a structural fault or lack the experience in discerning these faults? I have a down cow with a swayed back and she is unable to become re-bred. I can speculate and blame it on the sway-back. How does a breeder know for certain, the exact reason a cow is down or the reason she is not re-bred is associated with the sway-back? It appears to me there could be a myriad of causes for a swayed-back cow being down and for not being able to be re-bred. Likewise, there could be many positive reasons why a cow with a swayed-back could be advantageous. Look at the structure of a horse where the saddle would lay. Then look at a camel. Then look at a domestic dog. These sway-backs are there for a reason. What are the positive reasons for mother nature allowing a sway-back to occur?

 

[RD-Sam]

I have bred dogs for awhile, and I am not aware of any standard that says a dog should have a sway back, in fact most standards call for a level topline, some call for a roached back. If you bought some books on canine structure you would soon realize why that is important.

I can't think of a reason that mother nature would have created a sway back for?

One thing I looked for when I started getting involved with cattle, was a standard for each breed, or specifically the angus, never found it. Many other species that are shown, all have standards to which they are bred to and judged by. It would sure help to have a standard for each breed of cattle, then you would have something to breed by.

 

[novatech]

I have bred dogs for awhile, and I am not aware of any standard that says a dog should have a sway back, in fact most standards call for a level topline, some call for a roached back. If you bought some books on canine structure you would soon realize why that is important.

I can't think of a reason that mother nature would have created a sway back for?

One thing I looked for when I started getting involved with cattle, was a standard for each breed, or specifically the angus, never found it. Many other species that are shown, all have standards to which they are bred to and judged by. It would sure help to have a standard for each breed of cattle, then you would have something to breed by.

I am with you on this. I did find that about the only country that had standards was South Africa. They even have to be inspected before a transfer can be made from one owner to another (Hereford Society). I can see where this would make for a general over all improvement for any registered breed which would eventually pass on to commercial producers.
I never owned a sway backed horse and have had a few. Never owned a swaybacked dog and I have had a bunch. Never owned a camel, don't want to. I have owned a few snakes, their backs are all over the place.
I like my cows to have good top lines. Same reason I tell my kids to set up straight. Don,t want them screwed up when they are old.

 

[RD-Sam]

I have bred dogs for awhile, and I am not aware of any standard that says a dog should have a sway back, in fact most standards call for a level topline, some call for a roached back. If you bought some books on canine structure you would soon realize why that is important.

I can't think of a reason that mother nature would have created a sway back for?

One thing I looked for when I started getting involved with cattle, was a standard for each breed, or specifically the angus, never found it. Many other species that are shown, all have standards to which they are bred to and judged by. It would sure help to have a standard for each breed of cattle, then you would have something to breed by.

I am with you on this. I did find that about the only country that had standards was South Africa. They even have to be inspected before a transfer can be made from one owner to another (Hereford Society). I can see where this would make for a general over all improvement for any registered breed which would eventually pass on to commercial producers.
I never owned a sway backed horse and have had a few. Never owned a swaybacked dog and I have had a bunch. Never owned a camel, don't want to. I have owned a few snakes, their backs are all over the place.
I like my cows to have good top lines. Same reason I tell my kids to set up straight. Don,t want them screwed up when they are old.

Could you give me a link for the Hereford standard? Or maybe Knersie could give a link for the Hereford standard?