callmefence
Keyboard cowboy
I can run about 10 on 116 acres. That's if it's pretty fair land.
My experience with cows that size is they don't do well on Rocky ground.
My experience with cows that size is they don't do well on Rocky ground.
This is why we have such diversity in our cattle - or SHOULD have.callmefence":2zqefv8u said:I can run about 10 on 116 acres. That's if it's pretty fair land.
My experience with cows that size is they don't do well on Rocky ground.
ddd75":xf298gh6 said:140 hd on 116 acres in fleming co with no grain and crap hay.. all weighing 1500 - 1700 lbs??
yea.. thats not going to happen.
Ky hills":1ybjj778 said:ddd75":1ybjj778 said:140 hd on 116 acres in fleming co with no grain and crap hay.. all weighing 1500 - 1700 lbs??
yea.. thats not going to happen.
At least not for long.
*************":2l7ymcyv said:Ebenezer":2l7ymcyv said:"I don't think you are suggesting to starve down the cattle, in which case they might be somewhat smaller"
Not so much smaller but in a more normal body condition score. The cost to pack fat on a cow is not a cost that most beef producers care to afford and does not suggest fertility or femininity. To have obese cattle is as extreme as having cattle too thin. My opinion from your pictures: your cattle would melt in a most commercial operations.
Go next door to me, an Amish gentleman has over 60 daughters and granddaughters that we culled and sold to a farmer who had the operation before him (he passed away, and it was bought by the Amish gentleman). He ran a total of around 130-145 head at any given time on around 116 acres. Everyone around here knew him. His herd was never given grain, the hay was marginal, and they were crowded. The cows were on average 1500-1700 pounds. Again, he ran them as lean as he could, not how I would have done it. Even so, the cows were big and threw off big, healthy calves. Before he passed he used a Tenx son and a EXAR Denver son, as well as a Boyd bull on them, and he had some very nice fancy black steers, that brought top dollar. If you were nearby, I could show you those cows and daughters to back up what I'm saying. He owned several generations of them, and they performed, in what was definitely a commercial operation.
*************":24ibxu18 said:Ky hills":24ibxu18 said:ddd75":24ibxu18 said:140 hd on 116 acres in fleming co with no grain and crap hay.. all weighing 1500 - 1700 lbs??
yea.. thats not going to happen.
At least not for long.
PM me and I will give you the address so you can go see them. He rotated them every few days, between lots. I never said they were all cows, they were cows/calves, heifers, steers, 3 bulls. He never fed grain, ever. His hay wasn't crap, but it wasn't great either. He would sell about 35-45 steers a year, and would sell heifers and cows to thin things down. He maintained about 95 cows at any given time, most were from Branded. He often told me "i know I'm running too many, but it's working" The new owner has removed some of them and dropped the herd count, but there are still probably 70-80 head on 86 acres.
As I said before, that's too concentrated for me. But he was in his 80's and had cattle since he was a teenager, he wasn't a rookie.
Ky hills":2zhmy6j6 said:*************":2zhmy6j6 said:Ebenezer":2zhmy6j6 said:"I don't think you are suggesting to starve down the cattle, in which case they might be somewhat smaller"
Not so much smaller but in a more normal body condition score. The cost to pack fat on a cow is not a cost that most beef producers care to afford and does not suggest fertility or femininity. To have obese cattle is as extreme as having cattle too thin. My opinion from your pictures: your cattle would melt in a most commercial operations.
Go next door to me, an Amish gentleman has over 60 daughters and granddaughters that we culled and sold to a farmer who had the operation before him (he passed away, and it was bought by the Amish gentleman). He ran a total of around 130-145 head at any given time on around 116 acres. Everyone around here knew him. His herd was never given grain, the hay was marginal, and they were crowded. The cows were on average 1500-1700 pounds. Again, he ran them as lean as he could, not how I would have done it. Even so, the cows were big and threw off big, healthy calves. Before he passed he used a Tenx son and a EXAR Denver son, as well as a Boyd bull on them, and he had some very nice fancy black steers, that brought top dollar. If you were nearby, I could show you those cows and daughters to back up what I'm saying. He owned several generations of them, and they performed, in what was definitely a commercial operation.
I have some friends in the Fleming and Lewis County areas, in my observation the land is at least fairly comparable in terms of forage types and average stocking rates to here in Clark County. One of them lived close by a situation of heavy stocking on small acreage. He said the land was eaten into the ground, and the cattle were constantly getting out.
On our farm we are overstocked by most people's standards. Averaging around 80 to 90 head at any given time. 50 or 60 of those are usually calves weaned or yearlings. I supplement the cows almost every day in the winter with around 3 lbs of grain, to supplement our low quality hay. The calves and yearlings get roughly 5 to 6 lbs of grain per day in addition to the same hay. I also will feed the cows similar amounts less often during the summer to keep them coming up and easily handled. Our cows are likely average weights of 1400+, they stay in relatively good shape and if they were in comparable condition to those I turned the would weigh quite a bit more. If I did not supplement the pastures would be eaten into oblivion,
I am not questioning the integrity of the poster, but with the said stocking rate per acre and no supplementation on the neighbors farm, there has to be more to this story that is not known. Under usual circumstances I would think that the pastures would soon be eaten into the ground and fences would not hold the cattle for long.
Bright Raven":uszbmyyk said:Ky hills":uszbmyyk said:*************":uszbmyyk said:Go next door to me, an Amish gentleman has over 60 daughters and granddaughters that we culled and sold to a farmer who had the operation before him (he passed away, and it was bought by the Amish gentleman). He ran a total of around 130-145 head at any given time on around 116 acres. Everyone around here knew him. His herd was never given grain, the hay was marginal, and they were crowded. The cows were on average 1500-1700 pounds. Again, he ran them as lean as he could, not how I would have done it. Even so, the cows were big and threw off big, healthy calves. Before he passed he used a Tenx son and a EXAR Denver son, as well as a Boyd bull on them, and he had some very nice fancy black steers, that brought top dollar. If you were nearby, I could show you those cows and daughters to back up what I'm saying. He owned several generations of them, and they performed, in what was definitely a commercial operation.
I have some friends in the Fleming and Lewis County areas, in my observation the land is at least fairly comparable in terms of forage types and average stocking rates to here in Clark County. One of them lived close by a situation of heavy stocking on small acreage. He said the land was eaten into the ground, and the cattle were constantly getting out.
On our farm we are overstocked by most people's standards. Averaging around 80 to 90 head at any given time. 50 or 60 of those are usually calves weaned or yearlings. I supplement the cows almost every day in the winter with around 3 lbs of grain, to supplement our low quality hay. The calves and yearlings get roughly 5 to 6 lbs of grain per day in addition to the same hay. I also will feed the cows similar amounts less often during the summer to keep them coming up and easily handled. Our cows are likely average weights of 1400+, they stay in relatively good shape and if they were in comparable condition to those I turned the would weigh quite a bit more. If I did not supplement the pastures would be eaten into oblivion,
I am not questioning the integrity of the poster, but with the said stocking rate per acre and no supplementation on the neighbors farm, there has to be more to this story that is not known. Under usual circumstances I would think that the pastures would soon be eaten into the ground and fences would not hold the cattle for long.
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3j8dnsnj said:This is why we have such diversity in our cattle - or SHOULD have.callmefence":3j8dnsnj said:I can run about 10 on 116 acres. That's if it's pretty fair land.
My experience with cows that size is they don't do well on Rocky ground.
IMO - BH's cattle are obese. I would scold anyone I was advising if they got their cattle in that condition. But, if they work for him and don't have breeding problems or calving problems, not for us to scold. He has been doing this long enough to know what works for him.
For others reading this, I would warn, DO NOT let your heifers get this obese prior to breeding. Once a milk cell fills with fat, it will NEVER produce milk. So, a chubby little weaned heifer - or - fat yearling ready for breeding should NOT be your goal. Most on here knows I am into showing my cattle, which show cattle have to have a little layer. LITTLE layer is key, you do not want her with a fat udder. Yes, I see lots of them. Doesn't make it right for them later on in life as a cow.
Bright Raven":ixcg4x2z said:Ky hills":ixcg4x2z said:*************":ixcg4x2z said:Go next door to me, an Amish gentleman has over 60 daughters and granddaughters that we culled and sold to a farmer who had the operation before him (he passed away, and it was bought by the Amish gentleman). He ran a total of around 130-145 head at any given time on around 116 acres. Everyone around here knew him. His herd was never given grain, the hay was marginal, and they were crowded. The cows were on average 1500-1700 pounds. Again, he ran them as lean as he could, not how I would have done it. Even so, the cows were big and threw off big, healthy calves. Before he passed he used a Tenx son and a EXAR Denver son, as well as a Boyd bull on them, and he had some very nice fancy black steers, that brought top dollar. If you were nearby, I could show you those cows and daughters to back up what I'm saying. He owned several generations of them, and they performed, in what was definitely a commercial operation.
I have some friends in the Fleming and Lewis County areas, in my observation the land is at least fairly comparable in terms of forage types and average stocking rates to here in Clark County. One of them lived close by a situation of heavy stocking on small acreage. He said the land was eaten into the ground, and the cattle were constantly getting out.
On our farm we are overstocked by most people's standards. Averaging around 80 to 90 head at any given time. 50 or 60 of those are usually calves weaned or yearlings. I supplement the cows almost every day in the winter with around 3 lbs of grain, to supplement our low quality hay. The calves and yearlings get roughly 5 to 6 lbs of grain per day in addition to the same hay. I also will feed the cows similar amounts less often during the summer to keep them coming up and easily handled. Our cows are likely average weights of 1400+, they stay in relatively good shape and if they were in comparable condition to those I turned the would weigh quite a bit more. If I did not supplement the pastures would be eaten into oblivion,
I am not questioning the integrity of the poster, but with the said stocking rate per acre and no supplementation on the neighbors farm, there has to be more to this story that is not known. Under usual circumstances I would think that the pastures would soon be eaten into the ground and fences would not hold the cattle for long.
It can be done. It is a function of how much time you put into it and your skill at intensive pasture rotation. Fire Sweep Simmental in Missouri pastures 30 mature cows with calves on a total of 40 acres. The acres dedicated to pasture is probably 25 acres. They strip graze. And they been doing it for several years. How do I know? I manage it for them for week every year.
*************":wmyf1akm said:Bright Raven":wmyf1akm said:Ky hills":wmyf1akm said:I have some friends in the Fleming and Lewis County areas, in my observation the land is at least fairly comparable in terms of forage types and average stocking rates to here in Clark County. One of them lived close by a situation of heavy stocking on small acreage. He said the land was eaten into the ground, and the cattle were constantly getting out.
On our farm we are overstocked by most people's standards. Averaging around 80 to 90 head at any given time. 50 or 60 of those are usually calves weaned or yearlings. I supplement the cows almost every day in the winter with around 3 lbs of grain, to supplement our low quality hay. The calves and yearlings get roughly 5 to 6 lbs of grain per day in addition to the same hay. I also will feed the cows similar amounts less often during the summer to keep them coming up and easily handled. Our cows are likely average weights of 1400+, they stay in relatively good shape and if they were in comparable condition to those I turned the would weigh quite a bit more. If I did not supplement the pastures would be eaten into oblivion,
I am not questioning the integrity of the poster, but with the said stocking rate per acre and no supplementation on the neighbors farm, there has to be more to this story that is not known. Under usual circumstances I would think that the pastures would soon be eaten into the ground and fences would not hold the cattle for long.
It can be done. It is a function of how much time you put into it and your skill at intensive pasture rotation. Fire Sweep Simmental in Missouri pastures 30 mature cows with calves on a total of 40 acres. The acres dedicated to pasture is probably 25 acres. They strip graze. And they been doing it for several years. How do I know? I manage it for them for week every year.
We are in a valley with lots of springs, unless it's a full blown drought, our cattle can't even begin to eat down all the grass and clover when it's going full blast. We have some fields that we bale red clover and it's a blanket of purple, very hard to dry down even with a hay conditioner, we bale that, and that's what they eat in the winter, along with wrapped alfalfa/orchard grass haylage that we buy from Mark Thomas, he produces hay for the Thoroughbred horse industry, tests everything, and has been awarded with best hay in Kentucky for years.
We mow our pastures down a least a couple times a year lest it gets out of control, and that is with cattle grazing the fields.
With all due respect, "Sort of"?True Grit Farms":d28lsjs2 said:Definitely not Fenceman, but I think the beef industry will mirror the chicken and dairy industry. We'll be working for them raising what they want our our land for little to nothing. We're sorta already doing that. The only way I can see to survive and do it your way, is to be able to sell directly to the public off the farm. But the higher powers don't want a person to be able to make a good living off 50 cows.bball":d28lsjs2 said:callmefence":d28lsjs2 said:I agree well played Branded.. welcome to CT. Couple things. You were asked to show the numbers on how a 14000 bull benefits a commercial rancher. You dodged with the f450 comment. So your thick skinned but full of shyt. Until you show the numbers anyway. Maybe some undoctered photos of your cattle and your place to. Put your money where your mouth is,so to say. I'll wager at commercial sale my margins will beat yours. I've got 3 bulls right now.
1750 was the highest priced one. I post some pictures if you wish. Although I already have. Calves to we can compare. Only thing you gotta go outside and take em with your phone. I'll do the same. I just left one herd took some.fixing to go check another. I'll check back in.
As beef becomes labeled to certain bloodlines let me tell you what is gonna well just look at the chicken. Beef will be bought on contract directly from the producer. Who must by their genetics from the same people buying their beef.
The micro producer with 40 cows WILL BE GONE... there's always Craigslist I guess.
Only one way to offend me. And that's to think that you did. Lol...we're gonna blame Ron for that one...I Know him and I know he pmd you back and forth. Cause that's what he does. I've got something coming for him. lol................
Intriguing statement Fence. A major factor that has prevented the mass corporatization of beef production is the large quantity of land needed to produce cattle; essentially insulating or protecting the STO from being overwhelmed by corporatization. How and how soon do you see the STO becoming extinct and how will corporations go about implementing this.
Side note: I am using corporatization as a broad spectrum, inclusive term to describe what has already occurred in pork and poultry industries, and what I presume you are describing in the statement in bold highlights.
.Jeanne - Simme Valley":184xn6ov said:Whoa, whoa - James. I was not being negative. Please re-read. Your cow pictured and some others are obese. I don't think even you can deny that.
But - that is working for you and your environment. You have an abundance of forage.
After I made the comment that your program was working good for you, I did want to point out to any "newbies" reading our posts, that we as breeders need to be careful with our HEIFERS (not cows) for milk production. (a different topic)
We all get bantering back and forth and sometimes forget we are not the only ones reading these posts.
I was not being disrespectful to your program. Heck, Ron is a friend and I have told him his cows were obese!!! LOL He also knows it!
Jeanne - Simme Valley":bibsk2b3 said:Whoa, whoa - James. I was not being negative. Please re-read. Your cow pictured and some others are obese. I don't think even you can deny that.
But - that is working for you and your environment. You have an abundance of forage.
After I made the comment that your program was working good for you, I did want to point out to any "newbies" reading our posts, that we as breeders need to be careful with our HEIFERS (not cows) for milk production. (a different topic)
We all get bantering back and forth and sometimes forget we are not the only ones reading these posts.
I was not being disrespectful to your program. Heck, Ron is a friend and I have told him his cows were obese!!! LOL He also knows it!
Your idea of grass and mine differ greatly. Same goes when it comes to feeding cattle. I'm feeding mine 3lbs of corn - wcs mix every other day hoping that they won't die and make it to spring grass.*************":5xr7rq1d said:.Jeanne - Simme Valley":5xr7rq1d said:Whoa, whoa - James. I was not being negative. Please re-read. Your cow pictured and some others are obese. I don't think even you can deny that.
But - that is working for you and your environment. You have an abundance of forage.
After I made the comment that your program was working good for you, I did want to point out to any "newbies" reading our posts, that we as breeders need to be careful with our HEIFERS (not cows) for milk production. (a different topic)
We all get bantering back and forth and sometimes forget we are not the only ones reading these posts.
I was not being disrespectful to your program. Heck, Ron is a friend and I have told him his cows were obese!!! LOL He also knows it!
No offense taken Jeanne, I appreciate your input, but I assure you that if she was pulled off all feed for a year, and had to live solely on grass, even in the winter, she would still be 1700-1800 pounds. She was 9 months pregnant in that photo as well with a 90 pound bull calf.
True Grit Farms":20hgk81f said:Your idea of grass and mine differ greatly. Same goes when it comes to feeding cattle. I'm feeding mine 3lbs of corn - wcs mix every other day hoping that they won't die and make it to spring grass.*************":20hgk81f said:.Jeanne - Simme Valley":20hgk81f said:Whoa, whoa - James. I was not being negative. Please re-read. Your cow pictured and some others are obese. I don't think even you can deny that.
But - that is working for you and your environment. You have an abundance of forage.
After I made the comment that your program was working good for you, I did want to point out to any "newbies" reading our posts, that we as breeders need to be careful with our HEIFERS (not cows) for milk production. (a different topic)
We all get bantering back and forth and sometimes forget we are not the only ones reading these posts.
I was not being disrespectful to your program. Heck, Ron is a friend and I have told him his cows were obese!!! LOL He also knows it!
No offense taken Jeanne, I appreciate your input, but I assure you that if she was pulled off all feed for a year, and had to live solely on grass, even in the winter, she would still be 1700-1800 pounds. She was 9 months pregnant in that photo as well with a 90 pound bull calf.
*************":1zs9i2f0 said:True Grit Farms":1zs9i2f0 said:Your idea of grass and mine differ greatly. Same goes when it comes to feeding cattle. I'm feeding mine 3lbs of corn - wcs mix every other day hoping that they won't die and make it to spring grass.*************":1zs9i2f0 said:.
No offense taken Jeanne, I appreciate your input, but I assure you that if she was pulled off all feed for a year, and had to live solely on grass, even in the winter, she would still be 1700-1800 pounds. She was 9 months pregnant in that photo as well with a 90 pound bull calf.
Hoping they won't die? You are joking right?