44 Farms partners with Walmart??

[CattleMan1920]

Money can't change DNA, genetics. But money can buy feed that can make an animal grow to their potential. Those high dollar fancy bulls are front pasture types if their in the right environment and management. I don't feel we don't have the forage or time to see the benefits. A bull with decent EPD'S and moderate milk (25) works as good as anything else in this swamp.
What SAV bull that SS carries do you think is the best?

I hear ya! You wouldn't be too impressed with our front pasture/wetlands, the whole place looks like crap with the endless rain, but I think you would be surprised just how well SAV cattle perform even in less than ideal environments.

As for an SAV bull that Select Sires carries, here is the secret weapon in my opinion, we are using him on a few cows and they settled first try. I think he will gain more respect as time goes on. His daughters will be keepers.

https://selectsiresbeef.com/bull/angus/ ... rger-6813/

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Nice bull.

 

[jscunn]

Branded,
Those 205 day weights at SAV are impressive, however they are 90% management and environment and 10% genetics.
If those weights were real then how come only 2 SAV bulls are in the top 100 proven bulls for WW epd.

You didnt answer the question, show me 9000 in 5 years of natural service.. (30 calves per year)..

They are good cattle but they arent worth 14000 for the average bull at SAV.. It is hype pure and simple, the resource son in SD isnt 11000 better than the resource son in GA or FL..

 

[NEFarmwife]

Money can't change DNA, genetics. But money can buy feed that can make an animal grow to their potential. Those high dollar fancy bulls are front pasture types if their in the right environment and management. I don't feel we don't have the forage or time to see the benefits. A bull with decent EPD'S and moderate milk (25) works as good as anything else in this swamp.
What SAV bull that SS carries do you think is the best?

I hear ya! You wouldn't be too impressed with our front pasture/wetlands, the whole place looks like crap with the endless rain, but I think you would be surprised just how well SAV cattle perform even in less than ideal environments.

As for an SAV bull that Select Sires carries, here is the secret weapon in my opinion, we are using him on a few cows and they settled first try. I think he will gain more respect as time goes on. His daughters will be keepers.

https://selectsiresbeef.com/bull/angus/ ... rger-6813/

I had the pleasure of seeing Supercharger offspring. They're eye catching and I plan to use him on a couple of our girls this spring.

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded,
Those 205 day weights at SAV are impressive, however they are 90% management and environment and 10% genetics.
If those weights were real then how come only 2 SAV bulls are in the top 100 proven bulls for WW epd.

You didnt answer the question, show me 9000 in 5 years of natural service.. (30 calves per year)..

They are good cattle but they arent worth 14000 for the average bull at SAV.. It is hype pure and simple, the resource son in SD isnt 11000 better than the resource son in GA or FL..

We could go back and forth on this forever, but here is my OPINION, for what it's worth. SAV has a VERY LONG time frame of culling and developing their cattle, more so than a lot of operations. For $30-50 a straw I can buy all of their best efforts in a little plastic straw. That is a mind-boggling deal.

I prefer to AI, but some people want the convenience of a bull, and hence the reason they pay up at Schaff's sale, and other sales at other ranches.

I doubt a 2019 F-450 Platinum is worth what it cost, but I would prefer to have that over a 2019 Nissan Frontier. Both will get you where you want to go, but there is a world of difference between them. That may not have been the best analogy, but it's what came to mind.

We are a registered only operation, all Angus. I happen to really like the Blackcap May cow family. SAV rules the roost when it comes to that line. I want that line in our herd, hence SAV.

Boyd Angus, here in my neck of the woods, runs a first class operation, great people, and their bulls brought on average, in the 2018 sale $5596. Many around here would think that is WAY TOO HIGH!, but look at what you are getting, an assurance of quality and a very solid breeding program, with a deep pedigree. People pay for the assurance that their bulls won't deliver any unforeseen surprises, it's not a given that a bull from a top program won't have any issues, but buyers know that when they buy from a place like SAV or Boyd that they have quality. The two main Angus breeders in my area are Stone Gate, and Boyd's, they have a following that would not consider a bull from any other operation, no matter what. Same applies for SAV. The operations mentioned above have a great deal of "intangible value" which cannot be overlooked.

 

[Bright Raven]

Branded,
Those 205 day weights at SAV are impressive, however they are 90% management and environment and 10% genetics.
If those weights were real then how come only 2 SAV bulls are in the top 100 proven bulls for WW epd.

You didnt answer the question, show me 9000 in 5 years of natural service.. (30 calves per year)..

They are good cattle but they arent worth 14000 for the average bull at SAV.. It is hype pure and simple, the resource son in SD isnt 11000 better than the resource son in GA or FL..

We could go back and forth on this forever, but here is my OPINION, for what it's worth. SAV has a VERY LONG time frame of culling and developing their cattle, more so than a lot of operations. For $30-50 a straw I can buy all of their best efforts in a little plastic straw. That is a mind-boggling deal.

I prefer to AI, but some people want the convenience of a bull, and hence the reason they pay up at Schaff's sale, and other sales at other ranches.

I doubt a 2019 F-450 Platinum is worth what it cost, but I would prefer to have that over a 2019 Nissan Frontier. Both will get you where you want to go, but there is a world of difference between them. That may not have been the best analogy, but it's what came to mind.

We are a registered only operation, all Angus. I happen to really like the Blackcap May cow family. SAV rules the roost when it comes to that line. I want that line in our herd, hence SAV.

Boyd Angus, here in my neck of the woods, runs a first class operation, great people, and their bulls brought on average, in the 2018 sale $5596. Many around here would think that is WAY TOO HIGH!, but look at what you are getting, an assurance of quality and a very solid breeding program, with a deep pedigree. People pay for the assurance that their bulls won't deliver any unforeseen surprises, it's not a given that a bull from a top program won't have any issues, but buyers know that when they buy from a place like SAV or Boyd that they have quality. The two main Angus breeders in my area are Stone Gate, and Boyd's, they have a following that would not consider a bull from any other operation, no matter what. Same applies for SAV. The operations mentioned above have a great deal of "intangible value" which cannot be overlooked.

What you stated that I underlined is worth thinking about. You captured a concept some on this forum don't seem to acknowledge ( maybe because they don't want to). That concept is that what is captured in those "straws" is the result of breeding practices by some great breeders.

Some play this game that the only real breeder is the producer with a "walking bull". Nonsense!

 

[CattleMan1920]

Branded,
Those 205 day weights at SAV are impressive, however they are 90% management and environment and 10% genetics.
If those weights were real then how come only 2 SAV bulls are in the top 100 proven bulls for WW epd.

You didnt answer the question, show me 9000 in 5 years of natural service.. (30 calves per year)..

They are good cattle but they arent worth 14000 for the average bull at SAV.. It is hype pure and simple, the resource son in SD isnt 11000 better than the resource son in GA or FL..

We could go back and forth on this forever, but here is my OPINION, for what it's worth. SAV has a VERY LONG time frame of culling and developing their cattle, more so than a lot of operations. For $30-50 a straw I can buy all of their best efforts in a little plastic straw. That is a mind-boggling deal.

I prefer to AI, but some people want the convenience of a bull, and hence the reason they pay up at Schaff's sale, and other sales at other ranches.

I doubt a 2019 F-450 Platinum is worth what it cost, but I would prefer to have that over a 2019 Nissan Frontier. Both will get you where you want to go, but there is a world of difference between them. That may not have been the best analogy, but it's what came to mind.

We are a registered only operation, all Angus. I happen to really like the Blackcap May cow family. SAV rules the roost when it comes to that line. I want that line in our herd, hence SAV.

Boyd Angus, here in my neck of the woods, runs a first class operation, great people, and their bulls brought on average, in the 2018 sale $5596. Many around here would think that is WAY TOO HIGH!, but look at what you are getting, an assurance of quality and a very solid breeding program, with a deep pedigree. People pay for the assurance that their bulls won't deliver any unforeseen surprises, it's not a given that a bull from a top program won't have any issues, but buyers know that when they buy from a place like SAV or Boyd that they have quality. The two main Angus breeders in my area are Stone Gate, and Boyd's, they have a following that would not consider a bull from any other operation, no matter what. Same applies for SAV. The operations mentioned above have a great deal of "intangible value" which cannot be overlooked.

What you stated that I underlined is worth thinking about. You captured a concept some on this forum don't seem to acknowledge ( maybe because they don't want to). That concept is that what is captured in those "straws" is the result of breeding practices by some great breeders.

Some play this game that the only real breeder is the producer with a "walking bull". Nonsense!

I really wouldn't want the responsibility of having SAV Elation or SAV President walking around here in knee-deep mud. One injury, boom! gone! Not a lot of injury involved in a straw. Something happens to SAV Elation or President that's not my problem, I just move on over to the next top sire and keep on trucking. No loss to us. I estimate that if we had to buy all the bulls that we have in our tank it could exceed $5-6 million dollars for the physical bulls. We have them all for a tiny fraction of that price. Why would I want to pay $730k for a 1/2 interest in VAR Power Play when I can get him for $50 a straw? I understand that he may be a phenomenal investment, and may return many times that in semen sales, i.e. Hoover Dam, TenX, Rampage, but I'm not in the cash position to own those sires right now. I would probably use the $730k to purchase more land, but that's just me. I do know however that a bull like Hoover Dam has been a superb investment, so I cannot fault those that buy the top sires. Take Rampage, which we don't use, he has been the equivalent of a venture capital investment, his returns are phenomenal.

 

[CattleMan1920]

One more thing Ron, most people could take, say 5 heifers, their best, whatever breed they may be, mixed or whatever, breed them to say, Hoover Dam, they may get one or two bulls, maybe more. Those sons, even from non-registered, mixed cattle, would probably exceed in quality most of what could be purchased in the form of "homegrown" bulls in the $1500-2500 range. People may tell me that's hogwash, but you do have 50% of that son from a highly proven and accurate superstar.

A cattle producer can call up an A.I. tech, ask them to get him or her some Hoover Dam, 10 straws for around $250. and breed some heifers, $250 and the A.I. fee is far cheaper than what a bull would cost, and A.I makes WAY MORE sense the smaller your herd. The real issue is that most people don't want the hassle. That is the crux of the matter.

I would bet that I could take a terrible example of a cow from the stockyards and in three generations change that animal completely to where you would not even recognize where it came from, with A.I.

 

[Bright Raven]

One more thing Ron, most people could take, say 5 heifers, their best, whatever breed they may be, mixed or whatever, breed them to say, Hoover Dam, they may get one or two bulls, maybe more. Those sons, even from non-registered, mixed cattle, would probably exceed in quality most of what could be purchased in the form of "homegrown" bulls in the $1500-2500 range. People may tell me that's hogwash, but you do have 50% of that son from a highly proven and accurate superstar.

A cattle producer can call up an A.I. tech, ask them to get him or her some Hoover Dam, 10 straws for around $250. and breed some heifers, $250 and the A.I. fee is far cheaper than what a bull would cost, and A.I makes WAY MORE sense the smaller your herd. The real issue is that most people don't want the hassle. That is the crux of the matter.

I would bet that I could take a terrible example of a cow from the stockyards and in three generations change that animal completely to where you would not even recognize where it came from, with A.I.

I second that. There is no circumstance where I would go out and buy a bull. I can produce a better bull here by breeding one of my best cows to a "straw" bull that will give me the traits I covet.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Thou shalt not covet.

 

[Silver]

Do you consider SAV bulls capable of smashing the scales? I've never seen anything crossed around here have 205 or yearling weights that can even compare to what they produce and they are all Angus genetics.

By the way when a buyer comes over we make sure he or she can see the dam, and if natural service, the sire. No secrets, no surprises. Bright Raven will tell you that the terrain in this area of Kentucky is no walk in the park for cattle. They spend most of their time climbing hills.

I'm hearing a lot about "mashing the scales" in this thread. As a little little guy raising mutts and trying to improve I'm wondering what weight range that might be, to give me something to shoot for.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Do you consider SAV bulls capable of smashing the scales? I've never seen anything crossed around here have 205 or yearling weights that can even compare to what they produce and they are all Angus genetics.

By the way when a buyer comes over we make sure he or she can see the dam, and if natural service, the sire. No secrets, no surprises. Bright Raven will tell you that the terrain in this area of Kentucky is no walk in the park for cattle. They spend most of their time climbing hills.

I'm hearing a lot about "mashing the scales" in this thread. As a little little guy raising mutts and trying to improve I'm wondering what weight range that might be, to give me something to shoot for.

Dr. Riley has tons of data working with different universities on crossbreed cattle.
Google his work.
Here is some.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22767551/

 

[Silver]

Do you consider SAV bulls capable of smashing the scales? I've never seen anything crossed around here have 205 or yearling weights that can even compare to what they produce and they are all Angus genetics.

By the way when a buyer comes over we make sure he or she can see the dam, and if natural service, the sire. No secrets, no surprises. Bright Raven will tell you that the terrain in this area of Kentucky is no walk in the park for cattle. They spend most of their time climbing hills.

I'm hearing a lot about "mashing the scales" in this thread. As a little little guy raising mutts and trying to improve I'm wondering what weight range that might be, to give me something to shoot for.

Dr. Riley has tons of data working with different universities on crossbreed cattle.
Google his work.
Here is some.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22767551/

Just fumbled my way through a bunch of it but didn't see any actual weaning weight data, only comparative.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Lots of data from him at UofFla.

 

[Ky hills]

One more thing Ron, most people could take, say 5 heifers, their best, whatever breed they may be, mixed or whatever, breed them to say, Hoover Dam, they may get one or two bulls, maybe more. Those sons, even from non-registered, mixed cattle, would probably exceed in quality most of what could be purchased in the form of "homegrown" bulls in the $1500-2500 range. People may tell me that's hogwash, but you do have 50% of that son from a highly proven and accurate superstar.

A cattle producer can call up an A.I. tech, ask them to get him or her some Hoover Dam, 10 straws for around $250. and breed some heifers, $250 and the A.I. fee is far cheaper than what a bull would cost, and A.I makes WAY MORE sense the smaller your herd. The real issue is that most people don't want the hassle. That is the crux of the matter.

I would bet that I could take a terrible example of a cow from the stockyards and in three generations change that animal completely to where you would not even recognize where it came from, with A.I.

I can say that I have done just that thing in the past with my small herd. I have had cows and heifers bred to Hoover Dam. He is in my estimation a very good Angus bull, used his semen 3 years in a row. I liked the calves well and have a couple daughters from that. More recently we used two different Bulls one of which was PA Power Tool, am currently using a son out of an Image Maker daughter now. We have had very hit and miss results with timed AI, and certainly still need clean up Bulls. My hat is off to those who want to pursue AI, I do think you can get some good calves that way, but just does not seem practical for us. I have also been one of those that has bought several Angus Bulls in the $2500-4500 range, and honestly that has not seemed to be cheap by my standards. If we had a whole lot of cows or could utilize a bull for several years that may not be as costly, but we seem to have a very high turnover rate with Bulls. The home raised Power Tool bull is going on 4 years now which is a 2 to 3 years longer than the majority have stayed. The most expensive bull that I have purchased at over $4000 resulted in some of the worst doing calves as a whole that we have had. I liked him as an individual and he came from a larger and reputable breeding program. I have often thought about keeping back some Bulls from some of my best cows even cross bred but still haven't committed to it in large part. Have a predominantly Hereford bull calf with a little Brahman influence that I am going to use on a very small scale or if need be as a back up if something happens to either the Registered Angus or Hereford bull. I am just not in a position to where I can afford or see the benifit to buying a several thousand dollar bull for commercial and a handful of registered cows. For the record I used to have the way of thinking that you have and I understand the the reasoning behind it.

 

[Silver]

Well I've read a bunch of scholarly stuff, not clever enough to understand it, and still don't know at what weight a calf must be to mash a scale. :dunce:

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Well I've read a bunch of scholarly stuff, not clever enough to understand it, and still don't know at what weight a calf must be to mash a scale. :dunce:

774.3 lbs

 

[Silver]

Well I've read a bunch of scholarly stuff, not clever enough to understand it, and still don't know at what weight a calf must be to mash a scale. :dunce:

774.3 lbs

Thanks!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Well I've read a bunch of scholarly stuff, not clever enough to understand it, and still don't know at what weight a calf must be to mash a scale. :dunce:

774.3 lbs

Thanks!

Welcome.

 

[Silver]

774.3 lbs

Thanks!

Welcome.

Boy, old 44 Ruby 2357 would have to do better than that to earn her $500k though I think.