WOW what did I do wrong

[JHH]

Well the heifers started calving Sunday. First one laid down and had her calf ( huge) with no problems. This calf was big. 102 lbs Both mom and calf are ok. I timed her when she had it and it took her 45 minutes from the time she found a spot to stay put till she had the calf on the ground.

The next morning I had another one, it weighed in at 90. All these were bred to a easy calving bull ( not the one I pictured a while back). I have 4 more to go and now. All came out fine so far but I can see the writing on the wall. I have the vet # ready and the O.B. chains and the chute if I need them.

Sure did not intend for them to have that big of calves.

 

[greenwillowhereford II]

Sounds like you've got some heifers with decent pelvic area.
Bear in mind that the extra cold, hard winter we have had does affect BW.

What was the accuracy rating of the "calving ease" bull?

I've got a first calver that is wearing on my patience. She's been looking like she could drop one any hour....for several days.

 

[dun]

Can;t all be layed at the feet of the bull. The heifer/cow has a significant influence, as does feed and the temperatures during gestation. That all said. One of the highest EPD for calving ease in the Red Angus breed was a disaster for us. Even out of mature cows we had to pull calves. One bull calf born unassisted and I believe the BW was 102.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

JHH-

There may be several things that you did wrong. On the other hand, perhaps you did nothing at all wrong!

It could be, that in your zeal to do everything RIGHT, you could have over-fed your heifers, you could have used a bull with a BW rating that was high - natural for him, but resulting in large calves which your heifers, fortunately, could tolerate. What is the average BW EPD of your heifers? If their EPD's dictate large calves - you are going to have at least some large calves. You should be like "Perry Mason", - and investigate every detail and possibility. Then act accordingly to rectify the potential problem, if, in fact, there is a problem. This is one reason that the current trend is to attempt to lower the size of our national cow herd to reasonable and sensible weights - around 1200 - 1300 pounds after the third calf. Breeders are going out of reason in their fervor to get larger and larger animals, because as they say, ". . . .after all, we ARE selling pounds, arent we??" Maybe so, but we are also feeding very expensive feed to those very large cows in order to brag about how big our calves are at weaning, and how much $$$$ they brought! And at the same time, ignoring the "COST" of profit!

DOC HARRIS

 

[oakcreekfarms]

Our heifers calved heavy as well, ranging from 84-93lbs. Last years heifers were 60-73lbs. Our cows however are having average of 75lb calves, it's kinda weird.

 

[WAguy]

One of the highest EPD for calving ease in the Red Angus breed was a disaster for us.

Dun, that bull wasn't Above and Beyond, was it? Was thinking of using him on small cows and I think you said he did okay.

 

[dun]

One of the highest EPD for calving ease in the Red Angus breed was a disaster for us.

Dun, that bull wasn't Above and Beyond, was it? Was thinking of using him on small cows and I think you said he did okay.

Nope, not A&B. We've been really pleased with his calves. They have been a little smaller as weaners but as yearlings (slaughter) have been right up with the other calves.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Doc, I won't get into a battle with you (don't have the time or energy) but, I disagree. You cannot make a blanket statement about the weight of the national cow herd. Mature size relating to PROFIT, depends on the LOCATION. It is not PROFITABLE in my area to run small cows. Mature size of 1400-1600 is much more in line with forage quality & profit - for us and others.
I am a PROFIT oriented operation. That means my low end calves (steers) also must be profitable for me AND my buyer. We have been selling steers to 1 buyer private treated, sight unseen, over our scales, for many years. This indicate they must be making him $$$$.
Weight of cows is a strong indication of weight of offspring, and yes, we do sell POUNDS - bottom line. POUNDS for weaned calves & POUNDS for salvage value of cull cows.
Cull cows are an important part of yearly income in any operation.

 

[brandonm_13]

I was wondering about the BWT EPD as well. I know I've seen quite a few high calving ease bulls that were higher birthweight themselves, and have a moderate BW EPD. I just wonder sometimes about using them on heifers.

Dealing with the size of cow, here is my take. The larger the animal, the longer the gastrointestinal tract(GI). The longer the GI tract, the less efficient the cow is in converting feed into meat. In my area, predators are not much of a problem. There are lots of houses around and pastures are usually smaller in size, so smaller cows work for me. If I was out west, and was running cattle on a large spread, a larger cow might be less prone to predator attacks, as well as many other things. I would still probably keep away from the extremes on both ends.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Doc, I won't get into a battle with you (don't have the time or energy) but, I disagree. You cannot make a blanket statement about the weight of the national cow herd. Mature size relating to PROFIT, depends on the LOCATION. It is not PROFITABLE in my area to run small cows. Mature size of 1400-1600 is much more in line with forage quality & profit - for us and others.
I am a PROFIT oriented operation. That means my low end calves (steers) also must be profitable for me AND my buyer. We have been selling steers to 1 buyer private treated, sight unseen, over our scales, for many years. This indicate they must be making him $$$$.
Weight of cows is a strong indication of weight of offspring, and yes, we do sell POUNDS - bottom line. POUNDS for weaned calves & POUNDS for salvage value of cull cows.
Cull cows are an important part of yearly income in any operation.

"Jeanne - Simme Valley"-

Hey - - NO war! Whatever works for you. One "size" does not fit all. The beef cattle operations in this North American Continent are too diversified to shove EVERYBODY into a mold and expect it to work the same for all. In my travels I have seen six year old 'Matrons' that weighed over a ton, and their owner was as proud as he could be! :shock: I continue to maintain that - in general - the weight of the average beef cow in the United States of America should be close to 1200-1300 pounds.

Whatever :|

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Dealing with the size of cow, here is my take. The larger the animal, the longer the gastrointestinal tract(GI). The longer the GI tract, the less efficient the cow is in converting feed into meat.

:shock: :shock: That's a new one! For the sake of the newbies, I definately disagree, but that's what makes this interesting, everyone has their own ideas (even if they aren't based on fact).

 

[Frankie]

Dealing with the size of cow, here is my take. The larger the animal, the longer the gastrointestinal tract(GI). The longer the GI tract, the less efficient the cow is in converting feed into meat. In my area, predators are not much of a problem. There are lots of houses around and pastures are usually smaller in size, so smaller cows work for me. If I was out west, and was running cattle on a large spread, a larger cow might be less prone to predator attacks, as well as many other things. I would still probably keep away from the extremes on both ends.

I've seen research that shows larger cows are not a lot less efficient in converting food. They have a larger rumen. They can graze, or eat, more at one time. It's like a bigger gas tank on a car. It costs more to fill it up, but you don't make as many stops on a long trip, thus you're increasing your MPG. The "trick" is to identify when a "big" cow is "too big". And I think that's up to every individual rancher.

 

[RVF]

Feed may be one problem. I have added 20 lbs to the birth weight by changing from a hay/straw based ration to a hay ration. I should not have been genetics because I only looked at mature cows that were bred to the same bull across the two years.

The second issue is that birth weight is not calving ease. Yes they are related but I just had to pull a 80 lb heifer calf out of a heifer because the calf had a big head. Once the head was out the calf came out no problem. There are many bulls that produce heavy long narrow calves that are easier to calve than light weight blocky calves.

 

[bigbull338]

heifers having high birthweights doesnt mean you did something wrong.lets sitt back an look at what we know.you bred them to a calving ease bull.you bred them at the right age an weight.you bred them to calve in late winter.you didnt over feed them in the last trimester.so that leaves 1 thing.sometime late winter calves are come out big.so the time of year had something todo with the big calves.

 

[cowwrangler]

Doc, I won't get into a battle with you (don't have the time or energy) but, I disagree. You cannot make a blanket statement about the weight of the national cow herd. Mature size relating to PROFIT, depends on the LOCATION. It is not PROFITABLE in my area to run small cows. Mature size of 1400-1600 is much more in line with forage quality & profit - for us and others.
I am a PROFIT oriented operation. That means my low end calves (steers) also must be profitable for me AND my buyer. We have been selling steers to 1 buyer private treated, sight unseen, over our scales, for many years. This indicate they must be making him $$$$.
Weight of cows is a strong indication of weight of offspring, and yes, we do sell POUNDS - bottom line. POUNDS for weaned calves & POUNDS for salvage value of cull cows.
Cull cows are an important part of yearly income in any operation.

"Jeanne - Simme Valley"-

Hey - - NO war! Whatever works for you. One "size" does not fit all. The beef cattle operations in this North American Continent are too diversified to shove EVERYBODY into a mold and expect it to work the same for all. In my travels I have seen six year old 'Matrons' that weighed over a ton, and their owner was as proud as he could be! :shock: I continue to maintain that - in general - the weight of the average beef cow in the United States of America should be close to 1200-1300 pounds.

Whatever :|

DOC HARRIS

i was at a cow sale the other day where the guy got hurt and had to sell his herd,he had one 4 year old cow that weighed in at 2200,she was due to calve april 10,they couldnt get a bid on her so she went to the kill pen ,i am quessing she will bring at least .60 cents

 

[BRG]

Looks like nothing is wrong. The calves are bigger than normal, but you said they all came out fine. I take that as you didn't have to help them and they all lived. So I don't see a problem. Just because they are bigger, doesn't mean more trouble, sometime they are longer made, a couple inches of length ads alot of weight. I am not saying big birthweights are good, but remember that 15 pounds more weight now should mean at least 15 pounds more at weaning and probably more. That 15 lbs equals to about $20 per per calf more when you sell it in the fall.

 

[brandonm_13]

Dealing with the size of cow, here is my take. The larger the animal, the longer the gastrointestinal tract(GI). The longer the GI tract, the less efficient the cow is in converting feed into meat.

:shock: :shock: That's a new one! For the sake of the newbies, I definately disagree, but that's what makes this interesting, everyone has their own ideas (even if they aren't based on fact).

It's funny that you don't think it is fact. Apparently I'm stupid.. But the fact is the longer a GI tract, the farther food has to go from the mouth to the anus. The length of passage from front to back is a large factor in the determining the net energy that an animal is able to get out of a food source and turning it into meat, milk, wool, or whatever... Resource has shown time and time again that smaller animals are more feed efficient than larger animals. Cows 10:1, goats 6:1, chickens 2:1, fish 1.2:1. Obviously I know these are all different species with different digestive systems, but it holds true none the less. There's a reason a dairy goat produces more pounds of milk per pound of feed than does a dairy cow. And this is not just "my ideas." I first learned this fact from animal science professors with an emphasis in cattle production.

Now I should have clarified the fact that I am not talking about differences between breeds of cattle, but cattle within the same breed. Obviously, on average, a 1,500 pound Limousin or Charolais is more efficient at putting on muscle than is a 1,300 pound Red Poll, but I'll bet a 1,200 pound Hereford is more efficient than a 1,650 pound hereford.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

what happens>> between<<< mouth and anus is the important part, not length but capacity.

 

[brandonm_13]

what happens>> between<<< mouth and anus is the important part, not length but capacity.

Length and time from front to back is one of the determining factors into how much is lost between the "mouth and anus." Capacity(if you're speaking of stomach capacity) is more of a factor based on quality of forage. A high capacity is needed in low quality forage environments, but in my area, most people feed so much concentrate, stomach capacity isn't much of an issue.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

well now your making more sence ;-) alot of folk dont take into account the time from mouth to stomach, just how well they convert