Wish I had 50 more just like them

[callmefence]

There's money to be made with trash and there's money to be made with gold.
Just don't try to tell me your trash is gold.

 

[DCA farm]

There's money to be made with trash and there's money to be made with gold.
Just don't try to tell me your trash is gold.

Lmao

 

[DCA farm]

Not if you only have ten cows or so. Can never make the bulls that are expensive pay. Cheap is the safest surest way to a profit IMO.

There’s times I wish I only had 10 like when I buy hay ti feed all these suckers buy then there’s times I wish I had 1000 more

 

[kenny thomas]

Not if you only have ten cows or so. Can never make the bulls that are expensive pay. Cheap is the safest surest way to a profit IMO.

Notice I said as good as you can afford. For 10 cows you might consider that $1000 is what you can afford. No a $10,000 bull wouldn't make sense. But neither would a bull that should have been a steer.

 

[rocfarm]

B

With 10 or less, you could AI to the best of the best for less than you could buy and maintain a mediocre bull.

it way more hassle. I like to consider my time worth it. Plus, then cattle need northern feed like silage or oats and coastal.

I saw a note to breeders in how to prepare their cattle for auction, once. The note instructed them to put them on show rations 3 to 6 mints before the sale.

With 10 or less, you could AI to the best of the best for less than you could buy and maintain a mediocre bull.

Worried about the fact that good bulls have calves that need better forage. Mine is good, but not the best. Got about 12 acres of Klein surrounded KR bluestem. Got two crop fields that total about 30 acres that I’m letting go to grass. Was planted in oats in years past and grazed out. Got 40 acres cover, and about 80 of native. Got a guy that said he’d pick me up a 750lb angus bull that can breed for 1.40 per pound. Gonna buy a new bull calf every year. Plan is to break even selling the old bull when it hits about 1200 to 1400 Lbs at the end of second breeding season, and leave the new one out to clean up. Then breeding essentially only the cost of bull upkeep and two bulls are better than one for insurance.

When I worked it out on paper, couldn’t make AI or over a $2000 bull make sense.

Also have another angle as I’m talking to a few people about having about 15000lbs of cow/calves out there from April 15 to June 15 if winter and spring rains are good. Trying to convince them to trade me about 60 days from a good bull in dec/Jan then I’ll use my cheapo sale barn angus as a cleanup. Got enough paddocks and watering locations to make it work, I think. Fences are also fine. Just need 20 inches of rain between now and April 1.

When we get rain, that Klein can support a lot of aum, and the funny thing is they hit the kr first then only hit the Klein. This is what it looked like after 30 days for recovery about July 14th after having been grazed continuously from feb 1 to June 12 or so year before last. But it was a dream year for rain. Dad’s about 5’7”.

 

[rocfarm]

B

it way more hassle. I like to consider my time worth it. Plus, then cattle need northern feed like silage or oats and coastal.

I saw a note to breeders in how to prepare their cattle for auction, once. The note instructed them to put them on show rations 3 to 6 mints before the sale.

Worried about the fact that good bulls have calves that need better forage. Mine is good, but not the best. Got about 12 acres of Klein surrounded KR bluestem. Got two crop fields that total about 30 acres that I’m letting go to grass. Was planted in oats in years past and grazed out. Got 40 acres cover, and about 80 of native. Got a guy that said he’d pick me up a 750lb angus bull that can breed for 1.40 per pound. Gonna buy a new bull calf every year. Plan is to break even selling the old bull when it hits about 1200 to 1400 Lbs at the end of second breeding season, and leave the new one out to clean up. Then breeding essentially only the cost of bull upkeep and two bulls are better than one for insurance.

When I worked it out on paper, couldn’t make AI or over a $2000 bull make sense.

Also have another angle as I’m talking to a few people about having about 15000lbs of cow/calves out there from April 15 to June 15 if winter and spring rains are good. Trying to convince them to trade me about 60 days from a good bull in dec/Jan then I’ll use my cheapo sale barn angus as a cleanup. Got enough paddocks and watering locations to make it work, I think. Fences are also fine. Just need 20 inches of rain between now and April 1.

When we get rain, that Klein can support a lot of aum, and the funny thing is they hit the kr first then only hit the Klein. This is what it looked like after 30 days for recovery about July 14th after having been grazed continuously from feb 1 to June 12 or so year before last. But it was a dream year for rain. Dad’s about 5’7”.

Won’t let me edit, but that second pic is a food plot in one of our crop fields.

 

[rocfarm]

Notice I said as good as you can afford. For 10 cows you might consider that $1000 is what you can afford. No a $10,000 bull wouldn't make sense. But neither would a bull that should have been a steer.

Could find the money, but want to make money, so a pencil and some roe numbers will always be my friends.

 

[Travlr]

Worried about the fact that good bulls have calves that need better forage.

WHAT???

A good bull will throw calves that will do better on the very same forage as calves from a poor bull. Pretty obviously good calves will do better on good pasture, but so will poor calves. If you have poor pasture you have even more reason to get a bull that makes better calves.

 

[Travlr]

When I worked it out on paper, couldn’t make AI or over a $2000 bull make sense.

The price of the bull isn't the issue in finding a bull that works on your cows. You can buy a 10K bull and it can be a bad decision because the bull has the same faults in the rest of your herd. You can buy a cheap bull that improves your herd because the bull compliments your cows and what they are.

You have to think about what kind of calves you want and what kind of bull will make those kinds of calves... using the cows you already own. It isn't luck or money that makes good calves or a productive herd. It is knowing what you have and knowing how to work with it to make improvements.

That cow/calf that you posted the picture of was a horned cow. If you don't want calves with horns you choose a bull that is homozygous polled. The same thing goes for any traits you want. If you want more muscle, heavier weaning weights, consistent color, or any combination of traits... you buy the best bull for the traits you want within your budget. If you can find a herd improving bull for $500... good for you. But if you think a $500 bull is attractive because of the price and it throws crappy calves that sell for less than a thousand dollar bull, that is where your pencil needs sharpening.

If you have ten cows and are selling the calves for $600... and your neighbor has the same kind of cows and is selling the same age calves for $1000... you've got the wrong bull.

That's false economy. You "saved money" on a bull that's costing you profits.

 

[rocfarm]

No

WHAT???

A good bull will throw calves that will do better on the very same forage as calves from a poor bull. Pretty obviously good calves will do better on good pasture, but so will poor calves. If you have poor pasture you have even more reason to get a bull that makes better calves.

Not if you have moderate to low milkers and forage that averages only 8% over the year. Seen places that average 12-14% back east. High powered bulls make more sense there or in a feedlot with controlled feeding, IMO.
Genetics aren’t as simple as people make them sound. From what I can glean, how well your calves do at the sale barn depend on how soil, forage, your grazing/fert methods, climate, health management, supplements, calving luck/management (fall calves are lighter than spring because of interaction with climate and gestation biology, but average larger weaning weights, etc.), commodities markets like corn and soybean and hay harvest, who happens to be at the sale barn (did northern buyers come down that day for one last round before fall is too close to winter and thin-hides cattle can’t be fed up there anymore etc.), size of your herd, and one’s own astuteness on analyzing all of it together under a model that makes sense for your personal operation (pounds per acre/percentage of cow weight weaned/weaning weight, etc). Lots of variables there, only one of which is genetics.

And genetics seem to be a pretty fickle variable. Was surprised to find out that maternal traits tend to not be very heritable. And they haven’t figured out how inutero climate stimuli affect the calf after birth. Have to be many more issues as well.

My favorite quote I found on this one was that there is more variability within a breed on genetics than across breeds (if I didn’t get it wrong).
So I tend to be cautious on belief in paying for genetics for a small herd. With all those factors, and the huge expense of genetics (other than knowing the look of crosses at the barn and working on genetics that way), I feel like the small producer is almost guaranteed to lose money if he/she doesn't focus on those other variables/factors first.

But, I’m a newb when it comes to real-world experience, so I’m willing to let the market teach me new things. Looking forward to changing my mind about things and even being surprised sometimes if the price of the learning is at least breakeven.

Thanks for the response. Fun discussion.

 

[rocfarm]

The price of the bull isn't the issue in finding a bull that works on your cows. You can buy a 10K bull and it can be a bad decision because the bull has the same faults in the rest of your herd. You can buy a cheap bull that improves your herd because the bull compliments your cows and what they are.

You have to think about what kind of calves you want and what kind of bull will make those kinds of calves... using the cows you already own. It isn't luck or money that makes good calves or a productive herd. It is knowing what you have and knowing how to work with it to make improvements.

That cow/calf that you posted the picture of was a horned cow. If you don't want calves with horns you choose a bull that is homozygous polled. The same thing goes for any traits you want. If you want more muscle, heavier weaning weights, consistent color, or any combination of traits... you buy the best bull for the traits you want within your budget. If you can find a herd improving bull for $500... good for you. But if you think a $500 bull is attractive because of the price and it throws crappy calves that sell for less than a thousand dollar bull, that is where your pencil needs sharpening.

If you have ten cows and are selling the calves for $600... and your neighbor has the same kind of cows and is selling the same age calves for $1000... you've got the wrong bull.

That's false economy. You "saved money" on a bull that's costing you profits.

Gonna let a 60+-year-old at the auction (he owns it with another guy) buy the bull for me, because I don’t figure I’d get it right. I’ll just pay him a bit extra to do it.

You are right about the neighbor, but I’d point out that, if I still make money off the calves, that is quite acceptable. See other post on my comment on genetics.

Have to also admit I cannot tell why some calves bring more or less when I watch Joplin regional stockyards on DV auction, but it’s amazing how many times I see them say, ‘Hold the white one.’ And then buy it for less. The conditions is the same or better, it’s with its brothers, but it ain’t black.

 

[Travlr]

I’m a newb

Learn to look at animals... Condition, conformation, health, age, etc., are all factors in making decisions. That goes for what your cows look like so you know what you need (NOT necessarily want) in a bull.

And you are correct that genetics is not a hard science. No one knows all the variables. But there are people that live with constant mistakes and others that rarely make them. You want to learn how to be the latter. Making excuses for your genetic decisions isn't a good way to begin.

 

[Travlr]

I wish we didn't have a time limit on edits...

 

[Warren Allison]

But I’ll be buying me a lot better bull soon may even buy a White bull now that I think about it the little bull at house right now I only have $500 for him to I’m a sucker for a cheap deal

How many of those cows do you have, DCA? When do you breed them each year? I have a client that has been developing some Brangus x Chianina and some Brahma x Chi-Angus bulls, as well as crossing those 2 F1s and getting some nice homo polled homo black bulls We have been sending these to Central and South America, through a cattle broker friend in Mexico. We send them to the Texas border and the Mexican sends them to the other places from Mexico. If the timing works out, was just thinking when we send one, might could send it 45-60 days early to your place. Let you use one and see how it works out in your area.

 

[Warren Allison]

B


Worried about the fact that good bulls have calves that need better forage. Mine is good, but not the best. Got about 12 acres of Klein surrounded KR bluestem. Got two crop fields that total about 30 acres that I’m letting go to grass. Was planted in oats in years past and grazed out. Got 40 acres cover, and about 80 of native. Got a guy that said he’d pick me up a 750lb angus bull that can breed for 1.40 per pound. Gonna buy a new bull calf every year. Plan is to break even selling the old bull when it hits about 1200 to 1400 Lbs at the end of second breeding season, and leave the new one out to clean up. Then breeding essentially only the cost of bull upkeep and two bulls are better than one for insurance.

For what I and DCA and others have been talking about... breeding Corr cows to black polled bulls for the terminal cross weaned at 6 months.... this would not be an issue at all, even if it were true. For what we do, you just need to get a fast-growing black polled calf that weans at 500 or better in 6 mos.

 

[rocfarm]

Will mention that to the man who’s going to pick him out. I’d be happy with a 475 average weaning weight. If I’m understocked and the market is bad and no drought, I could also retain them to be yearlings and sell then as another option. Trying to figure out how to have a bit of flexibility to push back against the market like the grain farmers. Can’t put cattle in silos, though. I feel like the perishable nature of the product is where they get you. Don’t want to retain in a feed lot.

 

[rocfarm]

Learn to look at animals... Condition, conformation, health, age, etc., are all factors in making decisions. That goes for what your cows look like so you know what you need (NOT necessarily want) in a bull.

And you are correct that genetics is not a hard science. No one knows all the variables. But there are people that live with constant mistakes and others that rarely make them. You want to learn how to be the latter. Making excuses for your genetic decisions isn't a good way to begin.

Not excuses, reasoning. And I have watched at least 8 hours of beef schools from Texas A&M and OSU on confirmation. There are quite a few things to look at, and it seems that the guys who succeed at it look at thousands of cattle. I have a day job.

Working on looking at a cow right. But looking at confirmation in under 20 seconds before the packer buys her is pretty tough to do at the auction. And the catwalk gives you little to nothing to work with in terms of confirmation on a cow when you can only see backs from above and they can’t walk in a crammed pen. And again, many of the professors on those beef schools said the #1 thing is a calf on the ground each year, not what they look like. The A&M guy even warned not to be a sucker for a bull with a lot of ‘grease’. He indicated EPDs were helpful, but also seems to imply the small producer would be over his head quite quickly. So I feel like I’ll begin in other areas.

But I agree with you that my newbie status could be short-lived. Seems many people don’t make it too long. Then again, folks in my area are stubborn and I feel Grandpa’s approving spirit when I’m out there sweatin’ and bleeding on my dirt, so we’ll see!

Thanks again.

 

[KAstocker]

Here is one of two corriente crosses I bought at the sale barn last spring for probably normal price. They stuck out like a sore thumb when I got home, but I guess I didn't notice in the ring. Still learning. We'll see how they sell next month. This is about the closest I've gotten to one of them.

 

[rocfarm]

Here is one of two corriente crosses I bought at the sale barn last spring for probably normal price. They stuck out like a sore thumb when I got home, but I guess I didn't notice in the ring. Still learning. We'll see how they sell next month. This is about the closest I've gotten to one of them.

View attachment 21161

How much did you pay at auction and for feed, mineral, etc. how much weight did you add? I’d love to see the hard numbers.

Good pics. In good flesh for corrienties, I think.

 

[KAstocker]

@rocfarm they look better than when I first got them, but I still expect a $0.40+ discount when I sell them. I might show some numbers after I sell them.