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rockridgecattle

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Mod, I know this might get locked but i really felt this had to get said. Apology in advance.

HS you ask who in the US has been hurt by chicken litter being fed to our cows

I am only going to post this once. Please stop over analyizing.

Everyone in Canada and the US have been hurt by feeding ruminent material to cows. I am including chicken litter along with anything else. In Canada it was calf starter. But if a size of grain of sand BSE particle can infect a young calf, then truely it does not matter it fed. If it has animal protien in it, the risk is there. And if the risk it there then it should be a no brainer that we do not take that risk. Anyone who does, risks all of us who are in the cattle business more than the risks we have taken now.

You ask why do i say this, what is my proof.

Our borders closed
Our cattle prices dropped
farm are closing left and right because they can not get back on their feet financially
Now that we depleted our savings to stay afloat over BSE, we have nothing left to fight this down turn in the economy.
Families have experienced emotional, financial, and some even physical pain due to the stresses on the farm because of this.
You ask who has been hurt, I put to you, anyone who has any interest invested in cattle farming. From the cattle producer to the feed lots, to the slaughter houses, implement dealers, feed houses, tractor supply shops, vets, any one who has anything to do with the cattle farm
Government money which has been spent on trade missions to re open the border,
New testing and monitoring of cattle
legal battles and much much more

If you do not believe me, cross our border, visit us cattle producers and listen to our stories. You would be hard pressed to find any cattle producer who would use any feed with animal protiens for their cows. They would find another way to feed them.

From a producer who is hanging on by a thread....who has been through the financial rollermill, who is now working 18 hour days. Holding down 4 jobs to make the farm work
In January of 2003 we had the world at our feet. We expanded our cows, had plans of working our land that was 40 yrs old in production. We had projects on the go. We did not live out of our means. We were young and had dreams. Not of being really big, but getting to 100 cows, maybe enough hay to sell a bit, and have hubby quit his off farm Job.
May 2003,
BSE was found. Cattle prices slumped. No money to fix land, a drought hit, no money for feed, now i had to get an off farm job as well. We scraped together enough guts and $ to get our herd to 100 hoping it would pay the bills. Hubby gets laid off. We now need to diverefy. We start honey bees. We start two, now we are at 150 hoping to get to 300 this spring. We work like dogs, it's just the two of us. I work off farm, we, raise bees, raise cows, sell honey by products off farm, travelling almost every weekend from Sept to Dec. I am exhausted. The year before prices started to rebound a bit. We had hopes of breaking even in cows. The market dropped again. Inputs rose. If we did not have bees, we would not have made it. We cut to the bone. Nothing extra. Worked harder. Floods hit, hay is crap, only half of it was made. Now the cow herd we worked so hard for reduced in great # because we had no money to buy hay, the market did not even make it feasible to buy hay to get by another year.
We are now calving. We did everything right. Cut where we could, reduced the herd to match the hay. Only to see our cows going down hill. The winter was fierce. 8 weeks of -40 weather took its tole on the herd. With crap hay, we could not give them enough TDN. We had to buy feed, what we hoped not to do. Now we start calving. We are wondering is it worth it. The 2 am and 4 am nite checks, the hard pulls, the 24/7 work. I walked out into our calving area the other day. I admit, I've walked away from the cows and left it in hubby's hands. Everytime i saw the herd, I asked myself where are the rest of the cows. There is nothing left. Hubby felt the same way the first two months of feeding every other day. Now i have to deal with it. I have to help with calving, and i ask myself each time i am out there, where are the rest of the cows. Our herd looks so small. Everything we worked for, down the toliet, all because some shmuk thought it was ok to feed animal by products to cows.

You ask who has been hurt....I have. My husband has....the in laws have...now you know someone who has...
 

bigbull338

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the bottomline is this.BSE has killed yall cattle market as well as your beef am dairy exports.an thats a true fact.an the sad thing is your markets will prolly never bounce back.the truth is farming an ranching is a touugh dangerious crual unforgiving life.but if you truely love you do.you keep breaking your back an your health because its what you love.an its your life.or you can give up sell the cows an farm an walk away.an dont think that i havent been through anything because i have.an i carry the anger with me everyday of my life.
 

Brandonm22

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There is absolutely no scientific evidence that any calf, person, or family pet has ever contracted BSE from chicken litter. If you want to make the argument that it is not worth the potential bad press THAT is one thing; but don't make hysterical statements about the science without any science to back it up.
 

hillsdown

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what?":1hcwc8ki said:
SCARY PART IS IT SEEMS SEVERAL CARETAKERS ARE NOT ANY SMARTER THAN THE CATTLE THEY CARE FOR.

I think you may be giving some people way more intellectual credit than they deserve.... :lol2: :help:
(this is in no way directed at anyone who has posted.)

Sorry RR I know I promised.. :cowboy:
 

Brandonm22

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How many times do we have to say that the poulty companies don't use ruminant derived feed ingredients any more???? Some people need their cows to explain reading comprehension to them.
 

KNERSIE

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sooknortex":3gzxl9lq said:
Regardless of science and law, it is an ignorant practice.

Do you think the general public wants to eat beef that has been fed chicken shart?

Do YOU PERSONALLY want to eat beef fed "poultry litter" (The PC term).? How 'bout do you feed beef fed this stuff to your wife and kids?

I believe we are the caretakers of our livestock and its our duty to care for them responsibly. Feeding something that has a known risk involved isn't a responsible practice. Not even mentioning how it violates the responsible practices of foodstuff production standard accepted globally that is a requirement to export foodstuffs to other countries.
 

Running Arrow Bill

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I guess all of the proponents of feeding cattle chicken sheet and other junk (sawdust, styrofoam peanuts, shreaded paper, etc.) to fill the animal's bellies will continue. They are not going to be persuaded by anyone or any legislation. That's just the way they are and the way they are going to do.

Given all that...

It really increases the consumer demand for "good clean food for cattle", especially in the Natural Grass Fed Market. As there was a saying back in the 60's: "GIGO": Garbage in, Garbage Out (in reference to computer processing)... same applies to anything, any industry, or any other stuff...
 

Brandonm22

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what?":2etej0hm said:
Brandonm22":2etej0hm said:
How many times do we have to say that the poulty companies don't use ruminant derived feed ingredients any more????
SIR YOU CAN SPIT THAT OUT YOUR MOUTH AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WANT UNTIL IT IS ILLEGAL TO INCLUDE RUMINANT PROTIEN IN ANIMAL FEED IT WILL CONTINUE TO BE INCLUDED.

There is no appreciable benefit to using ruminants in chicken feed. ALL broiler production that I am aware of (outside of backyard growers like myself who eat what we raise) are mega-corps. Even Goldkist got swallowed up. There are about 20 people who write up the feed rations for the entire U.S. chicken industry. IF the corps say something you can bank on it. Nobody is out there making outlaw feed. You don't know what the heck you are talking about. WHY would somebody IN the industry keep repeating a LIE about the industry over and over again.
 

hillsdown

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WHY would somebody IN the industry keep repeating a LIE about the industry over and over again
.

Brandomn this is the million dollar question and I can answer it ..The number one reason in the world and why the US is in financial ruin now and has pulled all us in the free world down with it as well...

GREED..........


This is in no way a political statement but a statement to the corruption of people in power and the complete egotism and apathy of such people and it is becoming a world wide epidemic..
 

TB-Herefords

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Its wrong!!! The only reason you call it chicken "litter" is put your mind at ease a little. I seen a baby kid eat some dog "litter" once maybe we could work that into the baby formula to cut cost a little. Pipe the city sewer through a strainer and recan the corn. Call it corn "litter".
 

Bez+

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rockridgecattle":2bsrlrqa said:
Mod, I know this might get locked but i really felt this had to get said. Apology in advance.

HS you ask who in the US has been hurt by chicken litter being fed to our cows

I am only going to post this once. Please stop over analyizing.

Everyone in Canada and the US have been hurt by feeding ruminent material to cows. I am including chicken litter along with anything else. In Canada it was calf starter. But if a size of grain of sand BSE particle can infect a young calf, then truely it does not matter it fed. If it has animal protien in it, the risk is there. And if the risk it there then it should be a no brainer that we do not take that risk. Anyone who does, risks all of us who are in the cattle business more than the risks we have taken now.

You ask why do i say this, what is my proof.

Our borders closed
Our cattle prices dropped
farm are closing left and right because they can not get back on their feet financially
Now that we depleted our savings to stay afloat over BSE, we have nothing left to fight this down turn in the economy.
Families have experienced emotional, financial, and some even physical pain due to the stresses on the farm because of this.
You ask who has been hurt, I put to you, anyone who has any interest invested in cattle farming. From the cattle producer to the feed lots, to the slaughter houses, implement dealers, feed houses, tractor supply shops, vets, any one who has anything to do with the cattle farm
Government money which has been spent on trade missions to re open the border,
New testing and monitoring of cattle
legal battles and much much more

If you do not believe me, cross our border, visit us cattle producers and listen to our stories. You would be hard pressed to find any cattle producer who would use any feed with animal protiens for their cows. They would find another way to feed them.

From a producer who is hanging on by a thread....who has been through the financial rollermill, who is now working 18 hour days. Holding down 4 jobs to make the farm work
In January of 2003 we had the world at our feet. We expanded our cows, had plans of working our land that was 40 yrs old in production. We had projects on the go. We did not live out of our means. We were young and had dreams. Not of being really big, but getting to 100 cows, maybe enough hay to sell a bit, and have hubby quit his off farm Job.
May 2003,
BSE was found. Cattle prices slumped. No money to fix land, a drought hit, no money for feed, now i had to get an off farm job as well. We scraped together enough guts and $ to get our herd to 100 hoping it would pay the bills. Hubby gets laid off. We now need to diverefy. We start honey bees. We start two, now we are at 150 hoping to get to 300 this spring. We work like dogs, it's just the two of us. I work off farm, we, raise bees, raise cows, sell honey by products off farm, travelling almost every weekend from Sept to Dec. I am exhausted. The year before prices started to rebound a bit. We had hopes of breaking even in cows. The market dropped again. Inputs rose. If we did not have bees, we would not have made it. We cut to the bone. Nothing extra. Worked harder. Floods hit, hay is crap, only half of it was made. Now the cow herd we worked so hard for reduced in great # because we had no money to buy hay, the market did not even make it feasible to buy hay to get by another year.
We are now calving. We did everything right. Cut where we could, reduced the herd to match the hay. Only to see our cows going down hill. The winter was fierce. 8 weeks of -40 weather took its tole on the herd. With crap hay, we could not give them enough TDN. We had to buy feed, what we hoped not to do. Now we start calving. We are wondering is it worth it. The 2 am and 4 am nite checks, the hard pulls, the 24/7 work. I walked out into our calving area the other day. I admit, I've walked away from the cows and left it in hubby's hands. Everytime i saw the herd, I asked myself where are the rest of the cows. There is nothing left. Hubby felt the same way the first two months of feeding every other day. Now i have to deal with it. I have to help with calving, and i ask myself each time i am out there, where are the rest of the cows. Our herd looks so small. Everything we worked for, down the toliet, all because some shmuk thought it was ok to feed animal by products to cows.

You ask who has been hurt....I have. My husband has....the in laws have...now you know someone who has...

Well said my dear lady - your story is mine as well. And many others I know.

Been watching this and debating about wading in - but what the heck - some folks will always be your friends and the rest do not matter. :D

Be that as it may your bees held you over and my military skills were valuable enough to get me full time work in the middle east - wearing a uniform.

And your story means nothing to those who have never been there - so save your breathe.

I was castigated not long ago on these very boards for saying this type of thing - but - advertise the beef this way and see how many folks go for altenatives:

American beef - Proudly raised on chicken schitte! The best beef in the world!

There is no truth in advertising - if there was the American public would leave this product in droves.

Yes, greed it is - however you will never persuade those who do it that they do wrong. If the consumer only knew ....

Like beating a dead horse - so save your breather for the battles you can win.

Bez+
 

Bez+

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Running Arrow Bill":1xtf2ooh said:
I guess all of the proponents of feeding cattle chicken sheet and other junk (sawdust, styrofoam peanuts, shreaded paper, etc.) to fill the animal's bellies will continue. They are not going to be persuaded by anyone or any legislation. That's just the way they are and the way they are going to do.

Given all that...

It really increases the consumer demand for "good clean food for cattle", especially in the Natural Grass Fed Market. As there was a saying back in the 60's: "GIGO": Garbage in, Garbage Out (in reference to computer processing)... same applies to anything, any industry, or any other stuff...

RAB - if I was ever in your part of the world I would love to see your operation - and I admit I would be quite happy to sit down and chew on a burger coming from your animals.

You go my friend!

Regards

Bez+
 

hillsdown

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Bez, that means a lot coming from you ,as you and your wife have broilers (if I am right) and beef. You would never even think of feeding the shitzen to your cattle no matter how it could have cut your feed costs... :clap:

I started this whole thing with my comment a couple of days ago but now I know it is futile.. :(
 

Workinonit Farm

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Alright, I can hold out no longer. Several years ago on these very same CT boards I got into it with a fellow regarding the feeding of poultry litter to cattle. Whether it is considered legal or not, in MY opinion and based on my sense (skewed perhaps) of what is logical it is just plain not right to feed that crap to any animal.

It is practices such as those that result in more and more regulations that we cattle people seem to resent. Generally we don't like it when 'guv'ment' sticks their nose in our business and tries to tell us what to do, but I certainly can see how and why the 'guv'ment' gets involved.....the general public wants to know that their food is safe, and demands that 'somebody' must do something about it.

I'll shut up.

Katherine
 

regolith

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Thanks rockridgecattle...

I backed out of posting this in the other thread, but I'll say it here. I was in Scotland in March 1996. Overnight markets closed, cattle were stuck on farms. When they re-opened, a couple of weeks later, 'finished' steers and cows were value-less - everything over 30 months headed for the incinerator. And every border was closed to all cattle products.
How long for? I don't remember - I was in NZ, two or three years later, when the first glimmerings of hope for re-starting exports came through the international news.

Most farmers were unaware that the feed they gave to their cattle could contain meat and bone-meal. In the time-space between being jolted into awareness, and a total ban on the inclusion of ruminant protein, I was with a group of students visiting a feed mill.
The rep who showed us round refused to commit to producing feed without mbm, and also refused to supply farmers buying the meal with an accurate list of ingredients, or an assurance that it didn't contain mbm.
Thank to the ban, we've been given that assurance - though there were strong rumours for months after that feed companies weren't complying.
Over ten years later, halfway across the world, I still cannot get an accurate list of ingredients and their proportions from my feed company. For the same reason - they use whatever feeds they can source at the least cost to obtain the required nutrition levels in their feed.

As for whether chicken litter might or might not contain ruminant protein - anyone who thinks every load is safe is living in dreamland. I'm not going to speak for commercial farmers. But I have seen for myself what goes into the feed buckets for the handful of hens in smaller operations. Is that litter excluded from feeding to cattle? The hens lived on a cattle farm, so who knows.
We have enough battles between the farmgate and the consumer without adding this one.
 

hillsdown

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Don't "shut up" Katherine because you are right, and I said before in the locked thread that it is just a matter of time that you will not be able to band, tag , or brand an animal without a "higher up" watching you..Any meds you give will have to be done by a vet etc..will will lose all of our freedom because of stupidity and greed..

We in Alberta have to sign a form and give your legal land description etc. before you can take home minerals or a even a bag of milk replacer guaranteeing that we agree as to the usage of such products. We are being hit the worse because most of the cases have come from here, all supposedly from contaminated feed .But who is being held accountable,, we are,, not the feed companies that mixed it to begin with and did not follow feed bans..When we buy a product we believe it is safe ,but apparently the greedy corporations don't give a [email protected], so we blindly rely on government regulations but in the end we rely on ourselves and our own common sense..

Regolith Europe has not bounced back and I do not know if they will, with BSE and foot and mouth it has devastated farmers who have been in the business for many many generations. A lot of very good breeding stock was destroyed and yes as you said they had no idea that what they were buying as feed was a potential death sentence to their livelihood..It was and still is a very said situation..
 

Brandonm22

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regolith":2nqm7cqw said:
As for whether chicken litter might or might not contain ruminant protein - anyone who thinks every load is safe is living in dreamland. I'm not going to speak for commercial farmers. But I have seen for myself what goes into the feed buckets for the handful of hens in smaller operations. Is that litter excluded from feeding to cattle? The hens lived on a cattle farm, so who knows.
We have enough battles between the farmgate and the consumer without adding this one.

I raise backyard chickens in the United States. WHERE can I legally sell my broilers??? if I wanted to go commercial?? We are not in Zimbabwe. They won't let me butcher them at the flea market and I can't fill up the pickup with birds to take to the Pilgrim's Pride plant. The government TOLERATES me raising my birds strictly for my own home use......until we have bird flu or some other sort of disease debacle and then they WILL shut me down 10 minutes later to protect the commercial growers. Butchering a dead cow to feed to the chickens wouldn't be worth the hassle and if I did do something silly like that I don't have 500 lbs of litter a year and my garden eats all of that. Britain let their best management practices stagnate at about a 1930 level setting up that whole BSE epidemic. IF yall had had American standards (refrigerated butcher shops, cooked meat and bonemeal versus RAW, basic cleanliness, etc) , most of yall would still be in business and dozens of people would not have died agonizingly painful deaths.
 

hillsdown

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IF yall had had American standards (refrigerated butcher shops, cooked meat and bonemeal versus RAW, basic cleanliness, etc) , most of yall would still be in business and dozens of people would not have died agonizingly painful deaths.Brandonm22

Brandomn, this has not been done since well before the 1930's even the knacker men boiled the dead cattle..I do agree that they did have some very unethical practices in early years but if you think the US is exempt you are sadly mistaking,,you forget where your ancestors came from.. ;-)
 

Workinonit Farm

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hillsdown":18i5c450 said:
Don't "shut up" Katherine because you are right, and I said before in the locked thread that it is just a matter of time that you will not be able to band, tag , or brand an animal without a "higher up" watching you..Any meds you give will have to be done by a vet etc..will will lose all of our freedom because of stupidity and greed..

(I will try very hard to NOT be the one who gets this thread locked)

The thought of someone 'watching' as I tag, band, vaccinate etc. just irks me. I understand why things are headed in that direction, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

The stupidity as you put it,(and ignorance I will add) of the few who are oblivious that really bother me the most. The couple of folks that I have known who don't see an issue with their cows getting into the dogfood kibbles, or feeding a handfull of trout-food pellets (to encourage the animals to come to them) or the few folks that I know who will 'give a shot of penicillin' for any odd-ball reason....one shot will bother the heck out of me. And yes, I tactfully suggested that the cows not be able to eat dogfood, or be fed trout pellets etc. explaining the reasons why. It can be a difficult thing to do tactfully without sounding like a pain-in-the butt.

In times like these, and other difficult times in the past, we cattlemen (cattle people....whatever) need to work together to help ourselves and our industry, not fight amongst ourselves. But I also realize that that is not always a reality.

Katherine
 

DOC HARRIS

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Katherine - and all of the rest of the contributors to this thread-

I have considerable EMPATHY with those Ranchers who dream, struggle, work several jobs to attempt to realize their dreams, and fight the unending wars which prevent their achieving their goals in spite of all of their efforts! We all have circumstances which dictate that we do things and actions that we would never have thought practical or even possible - but I know that everyone has gone through tough times in order to achieve some measure of success, and I applaud them for those efforts!

I am not going to express my opinions or feelings on this subject on this thread (that of feeding POULTRY FECES ! :devil2: :roll: :mad: ) to our livestock, regardless of whether it is legal, acceptable, profitable, intelligent, scientifically feasable, or digestable! No - I am NOT going to reveal my REAL feelings or innermost revulsion to that supposedly acceptable nutritional practice! I am in total concession that circumstances alter cases, but - - - I am NOT going to express my opinion about that disgusting practice - even if it DOES fill a real need at times! No - I am just going to let it lie out there in the feedlot and chicken yard and decay! You can plead and beg me to express my opinion, but I am not going to say a word!

And to those who are burning the candles at BOTH ends in order to attempt to make a living doing the work that they love - I say, with feeling - GOD BLESS YOU and I am praying for you and your spouses and your families. Have FAITH and don't let the Satanic Negatives overwhelm you!

DOC HARRIS
 

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