White on Angus

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Back in 1972 Charolais & Simmental were both getting popular. Simmies are from Switzerland - from the Simme Valley in Switzerland!

 

[Chocolate Cow2]

Ky hills, I saw that too. 1972. A different time. No Snopes. No Wikipedia. A lot of days I wish it was still 1972.

 

[VirginiaCattle]

Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.

They aren't registered as a simmental, but the simmental database will record them.

 

[elkwc]

Sorry, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No, the offspring of those bulls cannot be registered as Simmentals unless the dam is a registered Simmental.
When you said you had offspring that had white bellies "all the way", I was referring to the fact that you could not register them in the AAA - but I thought you had registered Angus cows the way you talked. Who cares if the bulls throw white on non-registered cows - they could have anything in their background.

Jeanne the reason many commercial breeders don't want white scattered around on cattle is around here buyers like to have them cut off and then they get docked heavy. That is the main reason to use an Angus bull. For the solid black color unless you are trying to raise baldies. I either tell them no cuts or if one has a lot of color I feel will hurt him bad we just keep and feed him. Someone in the family always wants beef. Any white spot on the side, flanks, ect and some buyers will ask to have them cut off. I have found if you say no cuts the group still sells as well. They just try to get a bargain if they can.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

elkwc - I totally understand being docked! That's why ALL my steers sell private treaty direct to a feedlot - sight unseen. That dock for color is just "because they can" - not because the cattle are inferior.
But, I was referring to the fact that an Angus bull bred to "black" cows, does not mean the white is coming from the bull, the COW might be the contributor.
But, I also understand the bull may also be a white carrier (more white than acceptable from an Angus). No one wants to admit that there MAY be some "diluted genes" in the gene pool!

VA Ctl - ASA will record a REGISTERED animal as a "foundation" animal. IE - you have a reg. Angus bull (or any registered breed) that you want to use in an upgrading/crossbreeding program with your registered Simmental cows - or - you have a reg. Angus (or any breed) cow and you want to breed to a reg. Simm. bull, so you can registered the offspring. This is so that the data is more accurate for the offspring.
It costs $25 to add a REGISTERED other breed animal into the data base - the last I knew.

 

[True Grit Farms]

From what I gathered the ASA would register anything bred to a Simmental or Simmental cross bull. I've been to Bozeman and ate supper in the ASA new building, their in it for the money. But the same can sorta of be said about the AAA also money wise.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

From what I gathered the ASA would register anything bred to a Simmental or Simmental cross bull. I've been to Bozeman and ate supper in the ASA new building, their in it for the money. But the same can sorta of be said about the AAA also money wise.

Yes, bred to a REGISTERED cow or bull - offspring can be registered as a percentage. If you want a registered offspring, why wouldn't a breed association take your money?????? Well, duh - they are all a "for profit" business.

 

[elkwc]

elkwc - I totally understand being docked! That's why ALL my steers sell private treaty direct to a feedlot - sight unseen. That dock for color is just "because they can" - not because the cattle are inferior.
But, I was referring to the fact that an Angus bull bred to "black" cows, does not mean the white is coming from the bull, the COW might be the contributor.
But, I also understand the bull may also be a white carrier (more white than acceptable from an Angus). No one wants to admit that there MAY be some "diluted genes" in the gene pool!

VA Ctl - ASA will record a REGISTERED animal as a "foundation" animal. IE - you have a reg. Angus bull (or any registered breed) that you want to use in an upgrading/crossbreeding program with your registered Simmental cows - or - you have a reg. Angus (or any breed) cow and you want to breed to a reg. Simm. bull, so you can registered the offspring. This is so that the data is more accurate for the offspring.
It costs $25 to add a REGISTERED other breed animal into the data base - the last I knew.

Jeanne I misunderstood your post and intent when I read it. I do agree that they dock because they can. And where the white or other issues comes from when a bull is used on commercial cows is many times hard to determine. It can be either or both I've found. I've seen it go both ways. The way we usually do is to change bulls but stay within the breed and see if it goes away or not. If it does we lay the blame on the bull and if it don't on the cows. It is like the registered Angus bulls we used who didn't take the horns off of cows. We changed bulls and they did. The bulls also had scurs. Feel there was a horn gene somewhere in the background. Many times the PB breeder will say it is commercial breeders cows or his neighbor's bull must of bred a few. All of which can be the case. But when an issue is scattered over a 60 day breeding period unless the breeder wasn't checking his cows at all he should of noticed it.

 

[VirginiaCattle]

From what I gathered the ASA would register anything bred to a Simmental or Simmental cross bull. I've been to Bozeman and ate supper in the ASA new building, their in it for the money. But the same can sorta of be said about the AAA also money wise.

Yes, bred to a REGISTERED cow or bull - offspring can be registered as a percentage. If you want a registered offspring, why wouldn't a breed association take your money?????? Well, duh - they are all a "for profit" business.

First of all, they're all non-profit clubs. They aren't for profit and most of what they do is counter to making profit for the beef sector.

Secondly, I could record my entire herd with ASA and get EPDs or with AAA and get ratios.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

So what is your point. Recording your herd has nothing to do with REGISTERING your cattle. Where are you going with this? I don't understand what you are trying to convey to us????
They are a not-for-profit organization. Our state associations are a not-for-profit associations also. I mis-quoted on that.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

And registering a "foundation" bull or cow is different than recording your herd with ASA. You pay $25 to add the bull or cow of another breed association to be a "foundation" animal. That way the genetics listed on their offsprings' registration papers will list the actual dam or sire with it's registration number from the other breed. It just verifies the offsprings pedigree. If the sire or dam of another breed is used and is not registered as a "foundation" animal, the papers will simply state the breed - Angus dam - or Angus sire - or Charolais dam, etc.

 

[VirginiaCattle]

The whole point is that I don't care about white but if I wanted a paper to validate the calf I could get it.

The whole premise that a paper makes a cow worth more is going to quickly evaporate with technology.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No, recording an animal will not give you a registration paper. You can get a printout report showing EPD's on your herd - in the Simmental breed - unaware of what you can get in Angus.
In order for this world to have "breeds" of any species, there will need to be registered seed stock producers. Without PB cattle, hybrid vigor would be lost.

It is important for "word of mouth" or a forum like this to recognize bulls that are producing a trait that is NOT normal for their breed. If one person (or a few persons) with commercial cows are having a problem, it doesn't really mean anything, but if multiple herds, including PB cows, then everyone should be made aware of the problem. Too much white on the bellie may not bother you, but if you had registered cattle, you would not be able to register the offspring in an Angus herd.

 

[Ky hills]

No, recording an animal will not give you a registration paper. You can get a printout report showing EPD's on your herd - in the Simmental breed - unaware of what you can get in Angus.
In order for this world to have "breeds" of any species, there will need to be registered seed stock producers. Without PB cattle, hybrid vigor would be lost.

It is important for "word of mouth" or a forum like this to recognize bulls that are producing a trait that is NOT normal for their breed. If one person (or a few persons) with commercial cows are having a problem, it doesn't really mean anything, but if multiple herds, including PB cows, then everyone should be made aware of the problem. Too much white on the bellie may not bother you, but if you had registered cattle, you would not be able to register the offspring in an Angus herd.

I agree with your statement that if one or a few commercial herds are having an issue with excess white then it probably isn't much of a big deal unless it's your herd and it is causing a dock. It gets much more serious when it's conditions like AM, NH, or DD. Those can potentially have a more substantial impact on a commercial herd than a lot registered folks realize. Be it actually expressed in birth of dead or deformed calves, or more commonly undetected as merely an open cow due to fetal abortion. I have heard some registered breeders saying that the carrier status cows can just be sold as commercial then most of the time they don't know of the status and may have a carrier bull then they inherit the problem. Granted the known defects are eventually dealt with.I do think that reports of issues should be taken seriously even from commercial herds as they are the beneficiaries of the registered cattle traits both good and negative.

 

[Gators Rule]

So what is your point. Recording your herd has nothing to do with REGISTERING your cattle. Where are you going with this? I don't understand what you are trying to convey to us????
They are a not-for-profit organization. Our state associations are a not-for-profit associations also. I mis-quoted on that.

However, just because a breed association is filed as a "not for profit" that doesn't mean they don't focus on turning a profit. Not for profit groups love to profit.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I already did admit I was all wrong on that comment. They are all a "for profit" organization.