Where's the money?

Help Support CattleToday:

brokenmouth

Last time I looked it was the Christmas holiday weekend and time to spend time with family and friends. Where I come from that also means paying attention to Christian values, civility and excusing people who feel the need to speak with broken mouths.

Richard
 
Muratic":n3h5xsd6 said:
Does that mean you are not gonna answer his question?

reckon he aint. struttin and crowing around the yard all this time with a chip on his shoulder. then two or three folks show a hankering to knock him out from under it and all the sudden he starts preaching civility and manners. Humph

there will still be some trusting folks who follow him around. if he claimed he had a rooster that dipped copenhagen they would look under his wing and expect to find a can of snuff
 
brokenmouth":j43i1zqn said:
Muratic":j43i1zqn said:
Does that mean you are not gonna answer his question?

reckon he aint. struttin and crowing around the yard all this time with a chip on his shoulder. then two or three folks show a hankering to knock him out from under it and all the sudden he starts preaching civility and manners. Humph

there will still be some trusting folks who follow him around. if he claimed he had a rooster that dipped copenhagen they would look under his wing and expect to find a can of snuff

Looks like brokenmouth is the bull of the woods here.
 
muratic,

Last time someone picked on me, we made a bet... if I was wrong I'd 'eat my hat' and if he was wrong he'd KMA...

Well I'm still wearing my hat... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Richard
 
Oldtimer...

You make yourself out to be a horseman... So you'll appreciate this...

Kinda looks like a few spoiled studs around here... Best way to handle them is to put 'em out to pasture with the bred mares... let 'em get their teeth kicked in a few times.

Richard
 
Caustic Burno,

You best keep on strokin' those 'bramers' of yours 'cause they're probably worth a lot more than PM'n you for your 'investment guidance'...

Richard
 
Ok boyz... Enough good clean fun this morning... as soon as the markets open I'll be back to you in a couple hours with a good trade.

Would have been back to ya yesterday but didn't want to ruin my golf game..... :p

Richard
 
ManyHorses":3kh5rc1x said:
Caustic Burno,

You best keep on strokin' those 'bramers' of yours 'cause they're probably worth a lot more than PM'n you for your 'investment guidance'...

Richard

Be as good as the stuff your slinging totally worthless. Brokenmouth called your hand and you folded. Thanks BM for saving some of these newcomers from following bad internet advice as Dun stated.

Think its time for Macon to step in and lock this one down
 
Caustic Burno":1hc8n43v said:
ManyHorses":1hc8n43v said:
Caustic Burno,

You best keep on strokin' those 'bramers' of yours 'cause they're probably worth a lot more than PM'n you for your 'investment guidance'...

Richard

Be as good as the stuff your slinging totally worthless. Brokenmouth called your hand and you folded. Thanks BM for saving some of these newcomers from following bad internet advice as Dun stated.

Think its time for Macon to step in and lock this one down

No need to lock it down. He just promised to give a solid answer to the question when the market opens. Let's see if he is all hat or not. The best way to dispose of an idiot is to let him keep talking. And if he knows what he is doing we might learn something. My biggest fear with this guy is that people with no market experience will jump in with both feet and lose everything. There are always winners and losers in the market place those with the most knowledge win more often but still manage to lose some of the time.

Keep in mind that he is trying to sell a book and there for biased.
 
Tod Dague,

There are always winners and losers in the market place those with the most knowledge win more often but still manage to lose some of the time.

Keep in mind that he is trying to sell a book and there for biased.

Thanks... you're right about 'those with the most knowledge....'

But you're wrong about my 'trying to sell a book and therefore biased'... Obviously if a major publisher has agreed to take on my book, I don't need to be 'biased' on this forum... the proof is in the puddin'!

Richard
 
ManyHorses":3px0v0vw said:
Obviously if a major publisher has agreed to take on my book, I don't need to be 'biased' on this forum... the proof is in the puddin'!

were all waiting for the puddin so serve it up

name the major publisher

name the books youve already published on the subject

since a major publisher wouldnt take on your book in advance unless youve already made them some money with other successful books
 
brokenmouth,

AMK... MKA... KMA... any way ya want to spell it... When you're around me you best have something to bring to the table on the subject... and not rely on tearing down other people.

In law we have a saying... "If you can't argue the law, argue the facts, and if you can't argue the facts... attack your opponent."

Richard
 
ManyHorses":14gbyl53 said:
Caustic Burno,

Mmmm.... 'bad internet advice'.... seems like we're both using the same forum.

Richard

Much Horse are you a lawyer you seem to have a knack for sidestepping the test questions. Secondly I am not trying to get people to invest money on this board. The problem is you are fighting with old time cattlemen on this board that have made money, that are not buying your sales pitch. Ever thought that your educated self (you like to brag about) could learn something also.
 
Caustic Burno,

As much as a few 'bullies' have trapped me down on this thread, you can be assured that I'm all over these boards learning all kinds of great stuff... but never once have you or will you find me treating other members like I've been treated.

I'm hugely greatfull for all the 'learning' offered on these boards and thankful to those offering their time to share their experience.

Richard
 
Ok Brokenmouth, here's your trade example...:

Let's take your #1 as the better example because #2 is a little light to do this with, but the principle still applies.

Here's the realtime playing field... importance not necessarily in this order.
1.Live Cattle and Feeder Cattle are at/near contract highs, even with lasts years 03 contracts having been about 3 cents higher than this years 04's. This suggests that last year traders looked ahead to more good times; this years is doubtful being down 3 cents and longer months discounted as much as 11cents from front month.
2 Post harvest feed grain prices are down hard and probably going lower as farmer selling hits with new tax year.
3. US Dollar is at multi-year lows - if we can't export at this dollar level, either the dollar has to come down more and/or cattle prices have to come down to find the price level in competition with Australia and South America... don't forget their climate is exactly opposite of ours.
4. Canadian border opening to Live Cattle imports... not if, just when.
5. Low-carb diet fad is leveling out/down...
6. Feedlots are burdened with overweight and oversupply of finished cattle.
7. Packers have been operating in the red supplying retailers with holiday inventory, retail demand may be leveling off.

Given your numbers and averaging weight and numbers gives you 65 steers at 375#... that's 24,375lbs currently and we'll assume you want to grow 'em out to 750#... that's 48,750# which is just shy of the 50,000# Feeder Cattle contract size.

So far we've identified the:
a) 'playing field' we're forced to play on (listed above)
b) your ever-increasing risk (24,375-48,750#)... I don't know your expected ADG but 2.0 takes you out 188 days till sale date at 750#. This places your sale date in between the May 27th (155 days) and August 25th (245 days) options expiration dates. Personally I'd start closer with a March contract at 99 days because the market is more liquid and more manageable, and adjust it as necessary as the market changes.
Your goal as PRICE PROTECTING your investment in 65 head of cattle...NOT SPECULATING! Your 'investment' is what they're worth to someone else right now, not what you paid for 'em...and continues upwardly as you 'grow 'em out'.

I'm not a broker and other than my trading account with a leading commodities broker I have no connection with any of the commodities markets. As such I can't legally make a trade recommendation but if they were my cattle based I'd MANAGE MY PRICE RISK this way.

Long 1 March Feeder Cattle 102 Put @ 3.775 cents for $1,887.50
Short 2 March Feeder Cattle 97 Puts @ 1.950 cents for $1,950.00 (2x$975.00)
Net cash to your account $62.50 ($1,950 less $1,887.50) less commission and fees.

What I've done at this point is give myself the opportunity to sell 50,000# of cattle at 102 and at the same time buy 'em back at 97... This establishes for a 5 cent trading range and helps protect my trading position. If the market goes up, the 102 Put loses money but is offset by the two short 97's making money at an equal or greater rate... and if the market goes down the102 Put gains money while the 97 Puts also gain money, but because I'm short, it offsets the gain on the 102 Put.
THE OBJECT HERE IS TO PROTECT THE OPTIONS POSITION THAT'S PROTECTING OUR FEEDER CATTLE POSITION.

Notice that I bought a Put... it's an asset to me and obligates me to nothing beyond the $1,887.50 premium paid to the seller. Additionally I'm short two Puts, one which offsets the long 102 Put and a second Put called a 'naked leg'. This could become a potential liability to me.... but three things are important about this 'naked' leg.

1) It's already about 4 cents under the 101.53 futures price and well out of range of me being 'put to' by the buyer.
2) The buyers breakeven is 97 minus 1.950 cents or about 95 cents so futures would have to get down to 95 or better for him to exercise... meantime I would have moved it even lower..
3) Time decay is working on both the short Puts over the 99 days... by managing these correctly I anticipate keeping the $1,950.00 premium paid to me.

Possibilities:
As the March contract moves towards expiration it becomes more influenced by the cash market. If during the 99 days the March Feeder Cattle futures declined about 4 cents to say 97 and all things being equal, we'd pick up about 4 cents (102-98) or $2,000.00 (.04x50,000) on the price differential. Additionally if I held the two shorts to expiration (and continued to manage them) I'd be able to keep the $1,950.00 premium paid to me... less time held less premium. Note: If futures approached 97 on the downside, I'd move the two shorts further down to retain their premium value to me and prevent being 'put to'. Whereas I may have correctly predicted that the market traded to the downside, there's such a thing as being 'too right'... and I need to protect you short Put positions by moving them out of the way of my being 'put to'.

If March futures moved upwards against me, my long Put would decline in value for two reasons; first it too is decaying in premium value, and secondly being above the 102 strike price, it's only value is speculative and subject to what's call 'implied volatility'... in other words only what the market will bear... and the closer to expiration it will become zero. But I've protected my 'hinnie' by establishing the two 97 short Puts... and as the market moves upward the value of the short Puts declines to zero... and I make a profit on them to offset the loss on the long 102 Put.

If March futures stay in my trade range of 102-97 I'll make money on the downward price move AND I get to keep the $1,950.00 premium paid to me on the short 97's.

My main focus here isn't to make money on the options position but to protect my cattle position; and only secondly to make additional money on the options position itself.... NOTICE HOW I'VE NOT ONLY PROTECTED MY CATTLE PRICE POSITION TO THE DOWNSIDE.... BUT ALSO PROTECTED MY TRADING POSITION.

Far too often 'new money' is shortsighted by attempting to establish a position and failing to either protect or manage that position... Then when the market moves against them they lose money.

There ye go.... Richard
 
Richard,

Let me try to welcome you to the board, hang in there. You have just ran into what I like to call "The Posse". The same group of guys and gals who live to run off any "newbies" who they do not agree with or understand. Their method is not to use intellgent conversation, it is as you said, to go on the attack. They have taken alot of the fun out of the board for many and I'm sure have caused many not to post to a thread due to the possible wave of bs that may follow their point of view. They seem to feel like this is their forum. :mad:

Hang in there and don't give up on this board, we could use some intellegent business input.

Caustic,

You hammered me on this thread earlier in the week, if you would take the time to read the whole post or other post I've been involved in you'll have a better picture of what I'm saying. I said I make about $250 a head, then when it became obvious to me that this might be an inflated figure I said it was just a figure that I came up with using little thought, about 10 seconds worth. But you know none of the details (expenses) of my hobby, all I'm trying to due is improve my stock. I believe now my light weaning weights are due to poor milk production and poor pasture management, both areas that I have learned about on this board and am excited to be in the process of improving. You like to call yourself a "true cattleman" but all I see you doing is hunted the board to find somthing to nail someone on. If I did a search on your posts what percentage would be positive input? pretty low I think. You remind my of the kid who runs with the pack but stands behind the big kids saying "hit him, hit him" but always the first to run. Yea you once again got under my skin, you guys need to take it easy on the "newbies" regardless if you think they are right or wrong.

Richard you probably already have a pretty good idea of who's who and what they are about, this board has some very knowledgable cattlemen and cattlewomen on it. They have, and are, teaching me alot, don't mind the blow hards, they always show themselves for who they are.

Welcome,
Alan

I know CB "I can't walk the ground you plow"
 
Alan



Sounds like you are getting on the right track with pasture and herd management, doesn't matter the breed IMO as much as the management.
The 250 was a pretty outrageous statement . I tkink I would have worded it different and ask what the average profit margin was on a well run operation.
 

Latest posts

Top