Rustler9
Well-known member
DrumRunner,
What are you breeding these cows back to? Just curious.
What are you breeding these cows back to? Just curious.
Where did the Brindle come from?
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DrumRunner728
Well-known member
Don't hold me to this because I don't have a copy of her papers in front of me, but I believe she is out of Wiregrass Phenomenon. Three of the 5 calves are by Rug Rat and 3 of the cows are bred back to him. The blue cow isn't bred back because she has just calved. Sarah Jane, the white cow above with the big horns, is bred to one of Joe's new bulls.
Joe is loaning us a bull when the time comes. I trust him enough to feel comfortable that he'll send a good one.
Joe is loaning us a bull when the time comes. I trust him enough to feel comfortable that he'll send a good one.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Regardless of what one's opinion is of "multi-colored" coat colors of "whatever" breed - this is an object example of the philosophy of "One Trait Selection" in choosing breeding stock. Whether the breeder attempts to use multiple trait selective protocols or not, that "one trait" that they are so concerned and passionate about invariably dominates their selective decisions, to the detriment of other characteristics and traits. This results in progeny which are lacking functional, maternal, carcass and other traits which breeders, other than those seeking color, horns, and climatic factors, place at a higher level of desirability. I'm not saying it is right, or not right, - - - just different - and what the particular breeders are seeking in their protocols.DrumRunner728":xx1q50jr said:Thanks, Rustler. She is out of a cow we purchased from Joe Graddy. Just curious, but why is white considered undesirable? Personally, I like a lot of color and picked the cows we have largely based on color (certainly some other considerations thrown in too). This is the heifer's mama and if I remember correctly, the bull was mostly white or cream colored. I'll have to check her papers again to confirm that.
DOC HARRIS
DrumRunner728
Well-known member
Doc, I have no idea what you just said.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
:lol: you have to read his post dictionary in hand. i know it take me atleast three runs through his post to sink inDrumRunner728":6uciughr said:
Rustler9
Well-known member
Doc,
I'm not sure that I have a clue as to what you've just written. I don't think that we were discussing any single trait selection-rather we were discussing the Butler white color pattern that frequently shows up in herds with this bloodline. You mentioned:
Please remember that we are talking about true Longhorn cattle here and not a Longhorn composite which is so often seen nowadays and passed off as Longhorn. These true Longhorn cattle are quite functional and have excellent maternal traits. True Longhorn cattle will not have the carcass of a Limousin or Simmental so I will not even try to argue that point. I've been debating with our association's board of directors over this very issue this week. We have shows to showcase our breed and so many of the exhibitors bring in animals that have other blood bred into them so as to have the conformation of other beef breeds. Even when our association had Longhorn crossbred classes some of the breeders cheated on that. One such animal that was shown as a Longhorn cross turned out to have no Longhorn blood in it-it was a Maine I believe. Then of course our association dropped blood typing to protect the cheaters. It amazes me the extremes that some people will go to just to say that they won. Actually, I think our association probably dropped the Longhorn cross classes because some prominent breeders' animals look so crossbred that you can't tell the difference and some of these people have been so influential especially where money is concerned that it would be an embarrassment to them. Of course, this is probably of no concern to you but there are many of us out there who would like to keep the old true Longhorn alive and not continue to dilute it as is being done and has been done for quite a few years now.
I'm not sure that I have a clue as to what you've just written. I don't think that we were discussing any single trait selection-rather we were discussing the Butler white color pattern that frequently shows up in herds with this bloodline. You mentioned:
Please remember that we are talking about true Longhorn cattle here and not a Longhorn composite which is so often seen nowadays and passed off as Longhorn. These true Longhorn cattle are quite functional and have excellent maternal traits. True Longhorn cattle will not have the carcass of a Limousin or Simmental so I will not even try to argue that point. I've been debating with our association's board of directors over this very issue this week. We have shows to showcase our breed and so many of the exhibitors bring in animals that have other blood bred into them so as to have the conformation of other beef breeds. Even when our association had Longhorn crossbred classes some of the breeders cheated on that. One such animal that was shown as a Longhorn cross turned out to have no Longhorn blood in it-it was a Maine I believe. Then of course our association dropped blood typing to protect the cheaters. It amazes me the extremes that some people will go to just to say that they won. Actually, I think our association probably dropped the Longhorn cross classes because some prominent breeders' animals look so crossbred that you can't tell the difference and some of these people have been so influential especially where money is concerned that it would be an embarrassment to them. Of course, this is probably of no concern to you but there are many of us out there who would like to keep the old true Longhorn alive and not continue to dilute it as is being done and has been done for quite a few years now.
DrumRunner728
Well-known member
Rustler, I understood that loud and clear! Well said, sir.
I realize there is an extreme prejudice on these boards against Longhorns. That's why they make chocolate ice cream. And while I'll never have a cow in my pasture that isn't a Longhorn, I have no problem with those folks that want to raise any other breed. I respect your right to raise your breed of choice and would expect the same in return.
Now, Rustler, where were we? ;-)
I realize there is an extreme prejudice on these boards against Longhorns. That's why they make chocolate ice cream. And while I'll never have a cow in my pasture that isn't a Longhorn, I have no problem with those folks that want to raise any other breed. I respect your right to raise your breed of choice and would expect the same in return.
Now, Rustler, where were we? ;-)
Rustler9
Well-known member
oh yeah, I guess I forgot to add that this is the first American beef breed. ;-)
Rustler9
Well-known member
DrumRunner,
Wiregrass Phenomenon sires some beautiful feminine heifers. I can go through Joe Graddy's pastures and pick out that bull's daughters easily. I have one of his sons that we are using right now on a big group of big horned heifers and I expect good things from him. That Phenomenon blood is good stuff. The Rugrat bull is good too. He's out of Heavy Hitter. You have a good start.
Wiregrass Phenomenon sires some beautiful feminine heifers. I can go through Joe Graddy's pastures and pick out that bull's daughters easily. I have one of his sons that we are using right now on a big group of big horned heifers and I expect good things from him. That Phenomenon blood is good stuff. The Rugrat bull is good too. He's out of Heavy Hitter. You have a good start.
DrumRunner728
Well-known member
Rustler, got home and checked papers - the white cow is NOT Wiregrass Phenomenon, she's out of Gun Smoke. We do, however, have 3 cows that ARE out of Wiregrass Phenomenon. (I can post pictures if you'd like - I'm tough!) One cow is out of Super Bowl and the 6th cow (the blue cow with the white heifer) is out of JB Quixote Negro.
I honestly don't know much about cows - my ex-husband had a large herd of commercial cows (the whole Outstanding Farm Family thing) - but I spent all my time at the barn with the horses.
I've always admired Longhorns and was tickled pea green when hubby decided that was the route he wanted to go. I'm trying really hard to ask questions and learn. I had an absolute ball picking these cows out and felt like we got a pretty good little starter herd.
I honestly don't know much about cows - my ex-husband had a large herd of commercial cows (the whole Outstanding Farm Family thing) - but I spent all my time at the barn with the horses.
I've always admired Longhorns and was tickled pea green when hubby decided that was the route he wanted to go. I'm trying really hard to ask questions and learn. I had an absolute ball picking these cows out and felt like we got a pretty good little starter herd.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
In reading a few of the posts questioning what I wrote - I hasten to say that I was not trying to confuse anyone! Likewise, I was NOT talking against the Longhorn Breed! As a matter of fact, quite the opposite!Rustler9":2c3palxj said:
I was using this thread as an example of some breeders using "One Trait Selection" in the breeding program of ANY breed.
Example: Angus Breeder. Looking for a new bull or a new cow. Instead of using the suggested traits of Birth Weight, Calving Ease, Weaning Weight, Yearling Weight, and Milk Production as guide lines for "selecting" a herd bull or brood cows for his herd, he decided to concentrate on ONLY ONE TRAIT - "Calving Ease" - to the EXCLUSION of ALL the other genetic characteristics - generation after generation after generation, keeping heifer calves for replacements. Eventually, the OTHER traits which are important for the development of a successful herd - REGARDLESS - of the breed type - Beef, Dairy, Dual-Purpose, Whatever, will loose their ability to express themselves in the manner which is desirable for success IN THAT BREED!
It is my understanding (and if I am off base here I am sure that someone will certainly inform me of it) tghat there are SOME Longhorn Breeders who are concentrating their breeding efforts toward the development of Horn size, and Hide and Hair Color. Terrific! If that is their goal, they must concentrate their selection choices of seedstock toward the genetics which will produce those traits. That is "Single Trait Selection". It does what it will do.
Years ago, some of the Angus Breeders decided to concentrate on Low Birth Weight traits, and High Milk traits. As a result, those strains of Angus Cattle have developed Low Birth Weights and High Milk traits - and have lost muscling traits, particularly in the Hindquarters of a PERCENTAGE of their progeny (offspring). Result: "FUNNEL BUTT" ANGUS CATTLE!
LIKE BEGETS LIKE!
If you concentrate long enough on the traits that you desire by using seedstock that possess those traits - you will ultimately obtain those traits - good or bad.
Holstein breeders have concentrated on HIGH MILK PRODUCTION traits for umpteen years. What do they have? HIGH MILK PRODUCTION!
Example of "Single Trait" Selection genetics.
DOC HARRIS
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
In reading a few of the posts questioning what I wrote - I hasten to say that I was not trying to confuse anyone! Likewise, I was NOT talking against the Longhorn Breed! As a matter of fact, quite the opposite!Rustler9":jttvgwrz said:
I was using this thread as an example of some breeders using "One Trait Selection" in the breeding program of ANY breed.
Example: Angus Breeder. Looking for a new bull or a new cow. Instead of using the suggested traits of Birth Weight, Calving Ease, Weaning Weight, Yearling Weight, and Milk Production as guide lines for "selecting" a herd bull or brood cows for his herd, he decided to concentrate on ONLY ONE TRAIT - "Calving Ease" - to the EXCLUSION of ALL the other genetic characteristics - generation after generation after generation, keeping heifer calves for replacements. Eventually, the OTHER traits which are important for the development of a successful herd - REGARDLESS - of the breed type - Beef, Dairy, Dual-Purpose, Whatever, will loose their ability to express themselves in the manner which is desirable for success IN THAT BREED!
It is my understanding (and if I am off base here I am sure that someone will certainly inform me of it) that there are SOME Longhorn Breeders who are concentrating their breeding efforts toward the development of Horn size, and Hide and Hair Color. Terrific! If that is their goal, they must concentrate their selection choices of seedstock toward the genetics which will produce those traits. That is "Single Trait Selection". It does what it will do.
Years ago, some of the Angus Breeders decided to concentrate on Low Birth Weight traits, and High Milk traits. As a result, those strains of Angus Cattle have developed Low Birth Weights and High Milk traits - and have lost muscling traits, particularly in the Hindquarters of a PERCENTAGE of their progeny (offspring). Result: "FUNNEL BUTT" ANGUS CATTLE!
LIKE BEGETS LIKE!
If you concentrate long enough on the traits that you desire by using seedstock that possess those traits - you will ultimately obtain those traits - good or bad.
Holstein breeders have concentrated on HIGH MILK PRODUCTION traits for umpteen years. What do they have? HIGH MILK PRODUCTION!
Example of "Single Trait" Selection genetics.
DOC HARRIS
Rustler9
Well-known member
Ok Doc, Got ya. Various breeders do breed for various things. Some breed for conformation and pay no heed to horn. Some breed for horn and pay no attention to size or conformation. Either can be taken to extreme. I've seen some that I don't know how they can hold their heads up, I've seen some that vaguely resemble a Longhorn maybe because they have a Longhorn color pattern and six inches of horn. There are Longhorn breeders who are breeding black herds, this takes some time to do if they keep their herd pure and just concentrate on breeding the black on black. I like the various colors as well as the horns. They really are a very functional animal and I will be the first to say that they cross very well with other breeds. Anyway, I can appreciate what you're saying.
DrumRunner,
Post away. Let's see em. I love to see other folks' cattle. I've been out checking on some cows with new Butler calves-all red heifers. Then thank the Great Spirit, we got one heck of a storm and a good amount of rain. Oh man, did we need it. I'm feeling a lot better with some moisture. :clap:
DrumRunner,
Post away. Let's see em. I love to see other folks' cattle. I've been out checking on some cows with new Butler calves-all red heifers. Then thank the Great Spirit, we got one heck of a storm and a good amount of rain. Oh man, did we need it. I'm feeling a lot better with some moisture. :clap:
DrumRunner728
Well-known member
Rustler, I'll post them tomorrow morning from work - much faster connection than my satellite at home. I'd be here all night trying to load a photo . . . 
I think I understand what Doc is saying now. I'm like you though, Rustler, I like the colors AND the horn. I want the whole package. :cboy:
I think I understand what Doc is saying now. I'm like you though, Rustler, I like the colors AND the horn. I want the whole package. :cboy:
