Where do I go From Here?

[Drose]

What can I expect regarding weaning weights at 7-8 months with proper genetics? Right now we average around 525-550 pounds at sale time. The calves we sell always bring top of the market. They're good top quality calves. With good genetics on both sides should I be selling 650-700 pounders at 8 months? I have also started taking measures for better pasture management so that combined with more sound genetics should have an immediate effect.

 

[Ky hills]

Lot of knowledgeable folks on here giving good advice, so now I'll jump in and stir it up a bit, ha ha. My first advice is don't underestimate the cows you have. If you aren't already, I would highly recommend keeping records, know when cows calve and how their calves do. How long in between calves. If a cow raises a decent calf year after year and in a timely manner between calving, then she should be a keeper. I would not cull based solely on color or breed. Cull on lack of performance and disposition according to what you are comfortable with. We have culled pretty heavy at times.
You can tighten your calving window by pulling the bull out. And as the speakers from UK have stated at some cattle meetings start out by making two calving times, like spring and fall. Then over time if you prefer one time over another cull as needed and replace with cows that fit your desired calving time. Even in small numbers, small groups of calves sell better than singles.
With a mixed cowherd a good Angus bull would be my first choice. Doesn't have to be a real expensive bull, cause sometimes the quality and price are not always one and the same.
If looking at EPD's I would recommend a breed average BW or a little below, if calving ease is a concern. I say that because if you retain heifers from higher BW bulls it can affect their calves BW as much as the bull.
If a little more growth is desired than a easy calving black Simmental would work. I haven't had as much experience with Simmentals is why I usually recommend Angus bulls.
A good herd health program (vaccinations) as others have suggested is a great idea, in addition to a good mineral/nutrition program can go along way in reducing death loss.

 

[TCRanch]

My first advice is don't underestimate the cows you have. If you aren't already, I would highly recommend keeping records, know when cows calve and how their calves do. How long in between calves. If a cow raises a decent calf year after year and in a timely manner between calving, then she should be a keeper. I would not cull based solely on color or breed. Cull on lack of performance and disposition according to what you are comfortable with.

Nailed it!

 

[TCRanch]

What can I expect regarding weaning weights at 7-8 months with proper genetics? Right now we average around 525-550 pounds at sale time. The calves we sell always bring top of the market. They're good top quality calves. With good genetics on both sides should I be selling 650-700 pounders at 8 months? I have also started taking measures for better pasture management so that combined with more sound genetics should have an immediate effect.

Like @Ky hills mentioned, do not underestimate the cow. You can buy the best bull you can afford but if you put him on a sub-par cow, don't expect better than average results.

As an example of weights, this year my biggest group of steers averaged 716 lbs. when they sold 12/7 after being weaned 60 days and fully backgrounded. The majority of them were born in March/April and weaned 10/9. My largest group of heifers averaged 649 lbs. (and guaranteed open). Not as good as previous years but not bad, considering we were in an epic drought with hardly any grass. We started putting out bales in September (generally not until mid-end of November) and they were supplemented with a small amount of 20% cubes (or range nuggets).

You can do this! I feel like you really have the drive and want to succeed and you're moving in the right direction.

 

[Travlr]

What can I expect regarding weaning weights at 7-8 months with proper genetics? Right now we average around 525-550 pounds at sale time. The calves we sell always bring top of the market. They're good top quality calves. With good genetics on both sides should I be selling 650-700 pounders at 8 months? I have also started taking measures for better pasture management so that combined with more sound genetics should have an immediate effect.

The standard is seven months/205 days to wean. That's what weaning weights are based on. So anything over 500# is better than average.
Again... the trick is to have consistent looking calves within a range of type. If you bring in a load of calves that range wildly in size, age, color, ear, and fleshiness, a lot of times the sale barn will split them up by type, weight, color, and you won't get the same price on each lot. That means you are getting less on some for the same amount of effort you put in the top selling calves. You said you are running 60/70 cows so you will get the best price possible if you bring in 30ish steers that are as identical as possible and all get run through in a single lot.

The higher the weaning weights you are going for, the less likely it is to get consistency. 600# is about the top weights I've found are easily achieved. I've weaned a calf at 825 from a first calf heifer... but that's an outlier.

And get to know your auctioneers. Mine them for information. They know the buyers and what they are looking for. If you have the right kind of animals in larger lots you might even get a call from a buyer and skip the sale barn altogether.

 

[TwoByrdsMG]

@Drose

Lots of good advise already. It is not easy to make change but it sounds like you are heading in the right direction.

1. Cull- this is the best thing you can do to improve your herd year after year.
Any cows outside the 90 day calving window (March 1- May 31).
Ex: You can start by culling any cows that calve after July 1.
Any opens 30 days after "breeding season" ends
Ex: This mean pull the bulls after 90 days (ex: turn out bulls May 23- pull bulls Aug 23), preg check around Sept 23.
Any cow with bad feet, bad bag or bad attitude
Any heifers that aren't from your best cows.
Any bull that will not add to your program.

2. Bulls- sounds like you need help getting some better bulls on board
Any Charolais bull that is not producing calves that mash the scales is doing you a disservice
Any bull with a bad temperament, bad feet or inconsistent calves needs to be culled.

3. Management - get a program together that will work for both of you and be consistent!
Vaccines suited for your area and timed so that they don't interfere with your calving.
If you haven't already offer free choice salt and mineral (and no they aren't the same thing)
Tag cows and calves so you know who is who, and keep track of cows performance.

Don't be afraid to lean on other folks in your area and keep the vet in the loop.

FYI--I have 3 vets that will do farm calls now but good luck getting a hold of any of them after 5 or on a weekend! Neighbors/other connections should also be a high priority.

Making these hard decisions/changes now will help you in the long run. Good luck!

Note: sometimes it takes a couple years to tighten the window and make these changes. Make the changes now that will have the biggest impact on your season next year. Example: pull the bulls, cull any opens or short breds now, then potentially get a replacement bull before next breeding season.

 

[Travlr]

The list above is fine... but I don't use a 90 day calving season. If a cow doesn't breed in two tries she goes down the road. That means 45 days max. I leave the bulls in for 60 days and if the cows don't preg check after that they are gone. The ones that calve late are sold as heavy bred.

 

[Drose]

This thread has been a wealth of information and knowledge. I greatly appreciate everyone's response. You all know your stuff!

 

[Aero]

Hey guys I am new to the site but been running cattle for about 17 years here in Southeastern Ky. I started in cattle when I was 16 yrs old with my dad and it's been a bumpy road. My dad and I we're to ignorant and also somewhat to stubborn to research and educate ourselves as we started out in farming. So we took the school of hard knocks approach and it has been quite the experience to say the least. We try to run about 60-70 head cows and that consists of a very diverse mixture of breeds. We buy what we think is practical and will turn money over quick so we have not established a true breeding system. Which is standard practice for every small farm in our region. I live in coal country and primarily run cattle on reclaimed mining operations for the record.

I have always let my dad guide and lead the majority of farming decisions so as long as I'm not going in the hole and making a little money for my time I just let him live his best life and do whatever. Now after the toughest year of cattle losses we have ever had it has really got me thinking. I would like to start a breeding program or something that would help me select the best traits and characteristics for my area and the conditions my cattle are subjected to. I know this is a massive question and hard to breakdown in a few paragraphs but what would some of you veteran cattlemen suggest I do to right the ship after years of mismanagement? I have a three year old son that is a die hard farmer so I want to try my best to have a system figured out by the time he's able to participate if that's what he chooses to do. So let's hear it guys I'm all ears! Thanks!

The first steps are pretty simple:
Know what you are trying to sell and how - write it down.
Cull anything that doesn't help you get there or males your life more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Allenw]

Raise what the market wants, your area has a very different market dynamic then what my area does. I would learn what the sweet spot in the market is and aim for it.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Fertility is goal # 1 Adequate husbandry #1A (includes anything they consume, health requirements, containment and things unforeseen)
Pertaining to #1 If and when retaining heifers for breeding keep only those heifers born in the 1st cycle of the calving period.
Once a cow has a calf in the 2nd or later cycle of the calving period it is ok to keep that cow if you need to maintain numbers but do not
keep any of her progeny for breeding from that point. Never keep a bull from your herd for your own use. (small herds).
Buying a good bull is cheaper than buying an unknown quantity and quality of cows. My unasked-for opinion is to pay attention to
the different cow families in your herd. Cream has a way of coming to the top. Never let anyone top your herd. (don't sell the best you have)
The breed and color is your business. Raise what works for you and to hell with F1 F2 and FU advocators. (Unless they are paying the bills)
God Bless and Good Luck!

 

[Drose]

Just wanted to come back and say I've read through this entire thread three times now. I contacted my local extension office yesterday and inquired about the cost share program and got the ball rolling on that. They said I have to have a water quality program to qualify so I have to call another office to get that started. Not sure what that will entail. Sounds like the funds won't be released until around summer if you do qualify.

I've brought all my cattle to my main farm and got everything back in order on records. Ear tagging everything thats not been and so forth. Also started a bale grazing program trying to improve pasture quality.

Again I appreciate all the informative responses. Seems like people on here generally want to help you and see you succeed and thats impossible to find on an open internet forum. I don't have any local resources for what I am trying to accomplish so bare with me I have a lot more questions to ask in the near future.

 

[gcreekrch]

There are no such thing as foolish questions.

 

[farmerjan]

@Drose I don't know if I said it, but "welcome" to CT... and @gcreekrch is right... there are no foolish questions if you are trying to genuinely learn and do better. Sounds like you are heading in the right direction... and we will get to "razzing you" on occasion... goes along with the territory... but unless you are an a$$hole neighbor directly next to someone here... then we are hoping you will succeed... I've been doing this a few years yet love to read things from others to try to do a little better.....doesn't mean I take all advice... but it is nice to have "real life experience" from others than to try to implement just book learning...
Hope you are managing in this bitter cold snap...

 

[rocfarm]

I bought 5 from a stockyard this year. It was an estate sale. Thats the first one's ive bought from a sale barn in over 12 years. We buy from other farms but mostly raise our own heifers. Honestly thinking back on it most of my issues have came from the charlois angus cross cows. The best cow on the farm is an angus brahma cross. I've kept the heifers from her but I aint crazy about her temperament.

I'd think the Brahman blood would help with tick resistance. Do the calves have fewer ticks? Might pay attention to that aspect.

 

[Travlr]

Often people think owning cattle and putting them on some grass is going to be easy. You can just leave them to fend for themselves and in a year you get a paycheck.

Close to where I live there are people that use both high management and no management techniques to raise cattle, and you can see it in the animals. The ones that give their cattle endless treats are at the opposite end of the spectrum from those that don't worm their animals, and an animal owned by one is butter-ball fat and won't breed, and the animal owned at the other end looks like a sack full of deer antlers and has no teeth.

Everything being advised is a crap shoot... and it's up to you how to use the information... but the sweet spot where most people make money is closer to the high management style than the other. Mainly in that they pay attention to their animals, and not so much that they spend a lot of money.

 

[rocfarm]

Often people think owning cattle and putting them on some grass is going to be easy. You can just leave them to fend for themselves and in a year you get a paycheck.

Close to where I live there are people that use both high management and no management techniques to raise cattle, and you can see it in the animals. The ones that give their cattle endless treats are at the opposite end of the spectrum from those that don't worm their animals, and an animal owned by one is butter-ball fat and won't breed, and the animal owned at the other end looks like a sack full of deer antlers and has no teeth.

Everything being advised is a crap shoot... and it's up to you how to use the information... but the sweet spot where most people make money is closer to the high management style than the other.

Pardon. I just meant that, if I was in a tick-infested area, I'd seriously consider adding Brahman genetics to my herd in a deliberate way if ticks were lowering their performance. @Drose seems to imply he has naturally discovered this as his best animals seem to have some Brahman blood. To be more concise, I's say consider brangus-type or braford-type cows bred back to angus bulls. Might fit the situation nicely.

See pic for further clarification.

Wish everyone a Merry Christmas!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

@rocfarm I don't think travlr was directing that AT anyone. His comment was a great point. Producers can have no management or over the top spending money on too much management/care.

I have a top quality herd on the least input as possible. I must make money....no choice. They are my income, like a lot of places.

 

[ClinchValley86]

Good thread. And I definitely recommend anyone go with our Big-Timer, Kenny. He's learnt me a good bit about salebarns. I still owe him a steak dinner or three I feel like.

@Drose I am in upper East TN. 20 minutes from KY. I've had issue with blackleg and old metal on this farm. Also had a few grown animals go from healthy to dead inside a 12 hour window.

Best thing I've been doing is keeping food in front of them, especially this time of year. Don't force them to seek out things they normally don't eat.

Welcome to the board buddy. Also a father/son operation here, although the father has stepped back.

I have subscribed to culling hard the last 3 years. Tightening up calving window and getting rid of anything and any family that gives me 2 reasons. Reasons as simple as getting Pinkeye or being hateful.

I also suggest getting into some direct marketing to increase the income the cattle offer your family. Makes the losses not hurt so badly.

Hopefully what I've said was not already stated in this thread.

I also have a crayon box of cattle.

And Ron Bertram(spelling?), he runs the group "Everything Simmental Cattle" on FB. He's up in KY and has very nice Simmental cattle. AI breeds and sells seed stock. That could increase your weights. He seems like a very knowledgeable ans fair guy too. Its worth the time to seek him out and pick that brain.

I try not to focus on increasingweaning weights. 500 to 599 pays the best anyhow. Hit that target and you're doing well. Folks want 750 lb at weaning, that weights pays thr same as a 5 and 6 weight usually. From what I've seen.

Definitely get hooked up with the NRCS folks and get some fed help. It's there for the taking. Just make sure they do what YOU think will work on YOUR farm.

We are about to redo interior fencing and redo the well water system thru them. They've been a pleasure to deal with thus far.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

It us great that you want to improve and you are actually making some changes. Is your Dad on board for change?