I used to leave the bulls in until weaning. And then I ended up with bred heifer calves. Learned my lesson the hard way.
Where do I go From Here?
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Dave
Well-known member
If you quit making excuses for your cattle pretty quickly you will have cattle that don't need excuses.
Ky hills
Well-known member
I understand and agree with the practice of not making excuses for the cattle and culling heavy.
We do that to a point. Problem that we run into is that we have a small herd compared to several in here, and since we do cull fairly heavy it's hard to get built up. Seems like when we cull and try to buy back it's always more expensive and the new cattle regardless of perceived quality, registered or commercial have the same issues that we culled in the first place.
Almost 5 years ago we bought 20 cows and have only one of those left and some of y'all wouldn't have her either and I've been ready to cull her too.
Bought 4 registered Hereford heifers the year before those cows and have none of them left.
For us if we have a cow that has a good disposition ( not necessarily a pet by any means but one that doesn't run away from a distance or run at you, if they do either when they have a new born calf that's ok and not a mark against them.)
If they milk good and raise a decent calf then that gets them to stay around.
Where we sometimes have trouble is with rebreed. Sometimes after the 2nd or 3rd calf they loose some time. I've found that most will settle into a normal consistent routine after that, so we give most another chance now.
We put a preference on retaining heifers from the most consistent cows, and still that's no guarantee they will work.
We do that to a point. Problem that we run into is that we have a small herd compared to several in here, and since we do cull fairly heavy it's hard to get built up. Seems like when we cull and try to buy back it's always more expensive and the new cattle regardless of perceived quality, registered or commercial have the same issues that we culled in the first place.
Almost 5 years ago we bought 20 cows and have only one of those left and some of y'all wouldn't have her either and I've been ready to cull her too.
Bought 4 registered Hereford heifers the year before those cows and have none of them left.
For us if we have a cow that has a good disposition ( not necessarily a pet by any means but one that doesn't run away from a distance or run at you, if they do either when they have a new born calf that's ok and not a mark against them.)
If they milk good and raise a decent calf then that gets them to stay around.
Where we sometimes have trouble is with rebreed. Sometimes after the 2nd or 3rd calf they loose some time. I've found that most will settle into a normal consistent routine after that, so we give most another chance now.
We put a preference on retaining heifers from the most consistent cows, and still that's no guarantee they will work.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Those sound like possible good rules for a complete commercial operation.
I am pretty strict on my breeding herd. But, there are exceptions. Like I just had a calf climb into a hay feeder and got buried by hay falling off the bale. Was that the cows fault? There is no way in he!! I can replace the cow over the cost of a steer. Granted, a live steer will generally pay the yearly cost of keeping 1.5 - 2 cows.
But, my factories are way too valuable to nilly willy get rid of them. I know what I have and buying a replacement is more risk than keeping what I have.
I know - my raising cattle is much different than most - but just bringing up the fact that being "that" cut and dry is a bit over-board in my mind.
I am pretty strict on my breeding herd. But, there are exceptions. Like I just had a calf climb into a hay feeder and got buried by hay falling off the bale. Was that the cows fault? There is no way in he!! I can replace the cow over the cost of a steer. Granted, a live steer will generally pay the yearly cost of keeping 1.5 - 2 cows.
But, my factories are way too valuable to nilly willy get rid of them. I know what I have and buying a replacement is more risk than keeping what I have.
I know - my raising cattle is much different than most - but just bringing up the fact that being "that" cut and dry is a bit over-board in my mind.
farmerjan
Well-known member
We just found 2 calves out to a pasture that were killed... tracks and all show probably a pack of coyotes... have had coyote problems out here in the past... killed within the last week... eaten down to the bones except the legs... son found one eartag... other one no ears, nothing... just bones...between coyotes and buzzards picked clean.
I will not cull their mommas because they did not wean off these calves. They should be bred back... moved the cattle over to a more open section, where they will have trouble cornering anything against some fences... this was an area along a creek and somewhat bottlenecked... we also have a problem with black bears out there destroying the round bales of hay in the one hayfield.... Owner doesn't allow hunting... but we are going to talk to him about the coyote problems... calves were 300+ lbs... early summer calves that were doing pretty good considering the dry conditions. He said the cows were spooky acting too... We are going to probably start running a few more mules out with the cows now... It stopped the problems with the sheep this spring... never had this much trouble out with the cattle before. Need to find some "mean dog stomping" mules.....
I will not cull their mommas because they did not wean off these calves. They should be bred back... moved the cattle over to a more open section, where they will have trouble cornering anything against some fences... this was an area along a creek and somewhat bottlenecked... we also have a problem with black bears out there destroying the round bales of hay in the one hayfield.... Owner doesn't allow hunting... but we are going to talk to him about the coyote problems... calves were 300+ lbs... early summer calves that were doing pretty good considering the dry conditions. He said the cows were spooky acting too... We are going to probably start running a few more mules out with the cows now... It stopped the problems with the sheep this spring... never had this much trouble out with the cattle before. Need to find some "mean dog stomping" mules.....
GoWyo
Well-known member
Seems odd for coyotes to take down 300# calves. Are you sure it wasn't something bigger? Or calves died then scavenged?
Ky hills
Well-known member
@farmerjan several years ago when we first noticed a lot of black bear activity we also had an uptick in coyote issues around that time too, I don't know if there is a correlation between that like maybe competition for food source or just a coincidence.
We have a lot of coyotes, some are quite large and they tend to run in packs.
One time we had around 250 pound calf found acting odd, on closer look it had a big gash behind its front leg like something had swiped it we figured a bear.
Calf was weak and died soon after we found it. Another incident involving a 500 pound purchased heifer happened. We had some respiratory sickness in some bought and weaned calves. Had treated some of them and they were going good by the time, but found one dead against the fence kind of in a corner by a tree that had been picked clean all was left was some hide and bone.
My guess was that they had run the cattle and where that was one that had been sick a while before it probably was weaker and gave out.
Around that time our cows got spooky and the herd seemed to break up into small groups and never were all congregated together until much later.
Years earlier when I was raising dairy calves we had a group that were real easy to get spooked. One morning a work hand and I found a couple coyotes stalking around the Holstein calves that weighed around 3-400 and they got them spooked and followed them almost oblivious to our presence.
We have a mammoth Jenny with the cows and calves now and before her it seemed like having Brahman crosses or a longhorn in the field helped to keep the coyotes from causing trouble.
Prior to that over the years we'd lose small calves sometimes to coyotes now our biggest problem is black buzzards
We have a lot of coyotes, some are quite large and they tend to run in packs.
One time we had around 250 pound calf found acting odd, on closer look it had a big gash behind its front leg like something had swiped it we figured a bear.
Calf was weak and died soon after we found it. Another incident involving a 500 pound purchased heifer happened. We had some respiratory sickness in some bought and weaned calves. Had treated some of them and they were going good by the time, but found one dead against the fence kind of in a corner by a tree that had been picked clean all was left was some hide and bone.
My guess was that they had run the cattle and where that was one that had been sick a while before it probably was weaker and gave out.
Around that time our cows got spooky and the herd seemed to break up into small groups and never were all congregated together until much later.
Years earlier when I was raising dairy calves we had a group that were real easy to get spooked. One morning a work hand and I found a couple coyotes stalking around the Holstein calves that weighed around 3-400 and they got them spooked and followed them almost oblivious to our presence.
We have a mammoth Jenny with the cows and calves now and before her it seemed like having Brahman crosses or a longhorn in the field helped to keep the coyotes from causing trouble.
Prior to that over the years we'd lose small calves sometimes to coyotes now our biggest problem is black buzzards
kenny thomas
Well-known member
Put your longhorn with them.
I had bred heifer calves, but I blamed it on my wide calving window. There was a bull calf born 3 months ? before the other calves. After weaning, I found an aborted fetus in the barnyard. Worked the heifers and found more pregnancies. Let the bigger ones keep 'em and aborted the smaller ones. I got lucky. There was only a few. They calved unassisted and raised their calves. ...That bull calf got knifed. Probably a little under 1000 lbs. by the time he healed up and was sold.
We had a stag one year, named him One Nut. And I'll be damned if he didn't breed a heifer. Vet came out for a little surgery, subsequently changing his name to No Nuts. It happens!
I now pull my bulls 6 weeks prior to weaning, every heifer calf gets a shot of Lute, and bull calves are banded at appx 3 months. I do have a 60-day calving window but the majority calve within 45 days.
farmerjan
Well-known member
I would except we were getting ready to move them to this more opened field anyway in anticipation of them coming home within a couple weeks. Still might suggest it to son.... her calf is ready to wean and she should be bred back...
farmerjan
Well-known member
@GoWyo anything is possible. But we go check here twice a week, and son has been in there 3 times in the 8-9 days, because the float on the one water trough won't shut off all the time and he has changed out parts and finally put in a whole new kit... The one calf he found the tag for is one that you notice all the time, very people interested.... and he said he has seen it several times and then all of a sudden the cows were acting weird and he didn't see the calf and went looking... Both carcasses were up against the fence in that corner that is like a deep V where the fences come down to the watergap... he said it looked like they had been trapped there...
@Ky hills ... the bear problems this year with the rolls of hay has been extensive. They tore apart 3 rolls in the field that we hadn't gotten moved...1st cutting..... scattered the hay and rolled the rolls and really made a mess... then this last cutting son got all the hay put in a row along the edge right up along the driveway and patch of trees there... and they actually got several bales moved and rolled and tore the netting off one completely... he normally does not do netting here but thought for 2nd cutting it would help to maybe not get them unrolled as easy... and they scattered that bale into several big clumps. He has been in and out of there to get all the hay moved out. Normally we would feed that hay there when the pastures got short so we didn't have to move them all back to the barn area so soon... better the manure out there on the pasture than is the barn lots....
One day a couple years ago we were putting a new "wheel" on the back of the bush hog and a bear came right up the low draw there, and I thought it was a cow when I glimpsed it coming up,,,, then realized it was a bear... and it walked up through the cows like no big deal and the calves were actually running around like calves do when they want others to play and chase them... My son and I just watched him meander his way right up across the field and into the woods.... calves lost interest and came back down where we were and bear paid them no attention... Not saying it couldn't have been a bear that got them, but son saw tracks there along the water's edge... we got over 2 inches last Tues/Wed and it happened since then or the tracks would be long gone... I think he went in there again to replace the whole float piece on Friday...
It does seem like there are more coyotes out there than in past years... have not talked to the guy over the hill to see if he has had any sheep losses... but he also has several big Great Pyrs out with the sheep... has had them for years with his sheep...
This owner does not allow any hunting on the land...but the coyote problem has got to be addressed... he does not think the bear problem is that big a deal... that we should move the hay if they are a problem... GRRRRRRRRR..... PITA owners that do not make their living farming... and have more money than they need so no skin off their back for our loss...
@Ky hills ... the bear problems this year with the rolls of hay has been extensive. They tore apart 3 rolls in the field that we hadn't gotten moved...1st cutting..... scattered the hay and rolled the rolls and really made a mess... then this last cutting son got all the hay put in a row along the edge right up along the driveway and patch of trees there... and they actually got several bales moved and rolled and tore the netting off one completely... he normally does not do netting here but thought for 2nd cutting it would help to maybe not get them unrolled as easy... and they scattered that bale into several big clumps. He has been in and out of there to get all the hay moved out. Normally we would feed that hay there when the pastures got short so we didn't have to move them all back to the barn area so soon... better the manure out there on the pasture than is the barn lots....
One day a couple years ago we were putting a new "wheel" on the back of the bush hog and a bear came right up the low draw there, and I thought it was a cow when I glimpsed it coming up,,,, then realized it was a bear... and it walked up through the cows like no big deal and the calves were actually running around like calves do when they want others to play and chase them... My son and I just watched him meander his way right up across the field and into the woods.... calves lost interest and came back down where we were and bear paid them no attention... Not saying it couldn't have been a bear that got them, but son saw tracks there along the water's edge... we got over 2 inches last Tues/Wed and it happened since then or the tracks would be long gone... I think he went in there again to replace the whole float piece on Friday...
It does seem like there are more coyotes out there than in past years... have not talked to the guy over the hill to see if he has had any sheep losses... but he also has several big Great Pyrs out with the sheep... has had them for years with his sheep...
This owner does not allow any hunting on the land...but the coyote problem has got to be addressed... he does not think the bear problem is that big a deal... that we should move the hay if they are a problem... GRRRRRRRRR..... PITA owners that do not make their living farming... and have more money than they need so no skin off their back for our loss...
Ky hills
Well-known member
Bears can be destructive for sure. One fall they must have been looking for food and tore up dead trees and done a number on some rotting fence posts.
One evening we were working on fence and my wife kept saying she heard a calf making a funny sounding bawl, I can't hear so I didn't hear it. Then she looked down over the hill and said she saw a little black calf by itself. It struck me as odd because we didn't have any black calves or small calves at that time. Then we realized it was likely a young bear. I walked around where she saw it and saw some big tracks in the mud below a pond spillway. that feeds into a branch that goes to a neighboring place that is grown up like a wilderness.
A couple years ago we were checking on a cow that had calved early one morning and my wife saw a big bear run into the bushes and while she was pointing that out, I saw a baby bear run up tree in the fence line on that neighboring property.
One evening when we had a big garden down in a hayfield, I was walking with a backpack sprayer with a pre-emergent
and heard a commotion sounded like branches breaking it was loud for me to have heard it, and I looked over and a tall but fairly small around tree was rocking back and forth at the top.
I didn't see any animal as the underbrush was thick with honeysuckle and other trees by it. I figure it was a bear that had run up the tree and the branches at the top broke with it. I got thinking about it sometime afterward I got to thinking some of them tv shows would have said that was probably a bigfeets shaking the tree,
but I'm sticking with the bear theory. Seriously, though bears can be destructive they ransacked our garden that year and were hard on fences and dead trees around the fence line.
That's bad that the landowner doesn't see a problem and just makes it hard on y'all. Main reason I've never had any desire to try to rent pasture, some people can be pretty aggravating and overbearing and I just don't want to be in a situation where I have to put up with it.
I can kind of understand not wanting hunters around as sometimes some of them can take advantage of a situation. We don't really allow any hunting, but have let people we know hunt especially for coyotes. With houses in every direction, livestock and a state road frontage it's just to risky to let just anybody come in and hunt.
Red angus cattle according to this article.
Line Breeding is Good For Profit
A couple months ago I wrote an article for On Pasture called Breeding Matters. I briefly alluded to Line Breeding as a method of getting greater consistency and uniformity of type in one’s herd or …
onpasture.com
Little Joe
Well-known member
I was having this discussion with a neighbor the other day, it amazes me how many veteran hunters will take a shot with a rifle towards a house or road because they can't see the house due to brush, trees or hills, but they know the house or road is there. I hunt a little and when I set up I always pick out a marker as to how far right or left I can swing and not be shooting toward someone else's property or a roadway. The direction I'll shoot with a rifle on my own property is several acres of hardwoods that belong to me before you ever reach someone else's property line, a stray bullet will catch a tree before ever making it to the property line. I'm a proponent of the 2nd amendment but a lot of people scare me the way they handle a firearm.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Yes, I'm a proponent of the 2nd amendment too, I think sometimes people question that when we don't allow them to hunt, Sometimes they will try to convince us that they know about guns and gun safety but it's not worth the risk. Our land is folded up with hills but still fairly small acreage and high powered rifles could easily go into neighboring property if not mindful of it.
We've had two cattle get shot, one from the road probably just some idiots out doing bad mischief and one by a neighbors relative from their porch. I figured the last one out a while after from the neighbor themselves describing a similar incident with the relative at another house. I checked the location and it was a straight clear line from their house to where I found the dead ready to wean calf.
Unless I really know somebody actually is a seasoned respectful hunter that will respect our instructions they ain't hunting here.
We have trouble with people sneaking onto the land and damaging gates trying to get in for whatever reason. Have had gates rammed, taken off hinges, fences cut. Had some hay stolen out of a field the night after it was rolled. I'd left the gate unlocked so the people working in hay could get their equipment.
One complaint I hear from other farmers is that some hunters will often take advantage and come onto property whenever they want and bringing other people with them.
Ebenezer
Well-known member
Roy Beebe's methodology is towards a maternal herd emphasis. That is not all bad but there is marketing advantages with cattle from an emphasis on production traits. It is a tight rope walk or needs to be a two herd type spilt. Keeping in the middle, with one herd, is the trick.
Tom Lasater had a set of principles for Beefmasters.
"THE BEEFMASTER PHILOSOPHY
What most differentiates Beefmaster cattle from other breeds is the Six Essentials, the breed's founding selection principles: Disposition, Fertility, Weight, Conformation, Hardiness and Milk Production. In the beginning, Lasater made the difficult decision to select only for these six economic traits. Because of this systematic pursuit of the best possible genetics, Beefmasters today are known as "The Profit Breed.""
What I later found odd was that herd sires or maybe bulls for semen on the website showed REA of 16.5"+. Maybe we all get carried away by extremes.
Tom Lasater had a set of principles for Beefmasters.
"THE BEEFMASTER PHILOSOPHY
What most differentiates Beefmaster cattle from other breeds is the Six Essentials, the breed's founding selection principles: Disposition, Fertility, Weight, Conformation, Hardiness and Milk Production. In the beginning, Lasater made the difficult decision to select only for these six economic traits. Because of this systematic pursuit of the best possible genetics, Beefmasters today are known as "The Profit Breed.""
What I later found odd was that herd sires or maybe bulls for semen on the website showed REA of 16.5"+. Maybe we all get carried away by extremes.
