kenny thomas
Well-known member
Ever notice at some stockyards there is an estate sale every couple weeks. It takes the traders that long to gather up enough cows to advertise another estate sale.
Where do I go From Here?
- Thread starter Drose
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kenny thomas
Well-known member
From the buyers end yes. Lol
kenny thomas
Well-known member
You learn a lot when you go to the stockyard 50+ times a year.
X 45 years and with the right instructors. Wish I could spend a few days with you.
Travlr
Well-known member
It can easily be crafted into a short few paragraphs if you are looking to maximize your profit by raising calves.
Consistent calves sell best. That means a type and color and weight. To get that you can start with consistent cows and breed for consistent results where your cows lack, or you can start with inconsistent cows and try to breed consistency. It takes less time to begin with consistent cows of the type you want to produce. You need cows that will raise pounds of calf that all look alike. Sadly, black cattle are the current best bet for top prices. (But that's a story we don't need to get into, it's just a fact of life) If you have grass that will keep a lactating cow healthy that's all you need. Supplements are difficult to get a return on. A good cow will outperform any supplements. So you need black hides and weaning weights and a consistent type.
I would advise you to decide which of your cows is the best you have and try to replace anything in your herd that's not similar with similar cattle. I buy old, proven cows to raise heifers from. Ten year old cows that are in good condition and can be bred to bigger birth weight, high weaning weight bulls. Any bull calves you get will be more profitable too. Buy other people's discards, being culled just because they are old. Heifers from ten year old cows tend to be better than heifers from younger cows for many reasons. You'll have to watch older cows for condition, but they will usually raise a couple or three calves before they go back to the sale barn. Ir's cheaper to raise your own heifers, but quicker to buy consistent cattle. Breed for good heifers with maternal traits and the steers will be just fine.
There are going to be a lot of people advising Angus bulls for black color, but I'd stay away from them because there are breeds that will throw black calves just as well and wean heavier calves. Some people on this forum raise black Simmental and they are superior cattle. I've had a lot of good results from Limousin and there are many good, black Limo bulls. When choosing bulls, AI or pasture bulls, don't forget their temperament.
If you deliver a load of thirty all black, heavily fleshed, seven month old steer calves weighing six hundred pounds to any sale barn in the country it is likely you will be at or near the top of the market. That's what you are shooting for... with as few dollars as possible spent by you to get them there.
Drose
Active member
Absolutely. This estate sold 107 head though. I went to the barn while they was trucking them in and looked them all over. Education isn't free so I try to learn from my mistakes as well as others very quickly.
Drose
Active member
The bull seems like a major part of the operations success. How would I go about finding and choosing a bull that would be good for my conditions? We don't have a lot of good farms around us locally so finding something close would be very unlikely. It doesn't seem like a good idea to go to the farm lands of western Ky and buy a bull to bring and turn out on a strip pit here at home. Don't get me wrong the ground we run cattle on will grow and keep cattle in top notch condition. As good as anybody's around for that matter. I just don't want to spend top dollar for a bull that will lose condition when I turn him out at the house. What can I do to make sure that doesn't happen? Am I overthinking it or is that a real possibilty?
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I don't know if you skipped or ignored but the state Kentucky will help buy bulls that improve your herd. There are just a few restrictions based on EPD's that you have to follow. The money comes from the National Tobacco Settlement.
Unfortunately it is becoming more difficult to find bulls that have been developed on nothing but grass, they are out there but you will have look.
Drose
Active member
I did read the link you provided. I have heard of the cost share program but always been skeptical and never investigated it any further. How do I get information on how to sign up for that? Local extension office or? Not ignoring advice I just learned and grew up under old timers advice. Most of that being never trust or get tangled up with state and federal government and if it sounds to good to be true it is. There's always a catch some way or another. I'm hear to learn and take advice because I don't feel what I am doing is working to it's full potential. If you think it's a good idea and something I should look into I most definitely will. I just don't know anybody that's ever done it so I'm cautious.
Get rid of all the cows outside that 70% calving window, sell as cow/calf pairs if you need to. You'll have to be diligent and pull the bull(s) to maintain your preferred calving and have a uniform calf crop. If you retain heifers, only keep the ones from proven cows that consistently breed back/calve on time (I prefer within the first 3 weeks of calving season). Have your heifers pelvic measured and don't breed them until 15 months.
As far as calving issues for the later cows, what is your vaccination and overall health protocol? Are they being worked the same time as the others? Same nutrition?
kenny thomas
Well-known member
I think you can qualify for cost share on a bull or on bred heifers. It's actually not government money but money from a settlement with the tobacco companies and in Ky it was designed to help the farmers profit from something besides tobacco. Yes check with your extension agent.
In Virginia they spend it on lots of things besides helping the farmers. TN has a tremendous program that helps with lots more.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
May I ask which sale barn this was at? I go to lots of sales.
Drose
Active member
Yep, Blue Grass Stockyards in Richmond Ky.
kenny thomas
Well-known member
Good sale.
Jeanne - Simme Valley
Well-known member
Lot of advice all over the place.
Some farms are buy and sell constantly, some are no management (which sounds like your farm) and some have great management (like @TCRanch )
"IF" you choose management... a 60 day calving season works great. I calve two 60 day calving (Jan/Feb and Sept/Oct - but I am a purebred breeder of over 50 years)
With a calving season, you only have that time to deal with calving. You can actually have a HEALTH program, vaccinating on a timely schedule. Newborns should be given a Selenium shot at birth (I also give A&D shot, dip naval, Inforce 3, weigh and ear tag.)
It sounds like you have also been taught not to trust/believe your vet.
If you are serious about wanting to become a good cattlemen, a vet is your friend.
You need to pay him to come out, look at your operation, explain where you want to make changes and have him advise a HEALTH PROGRAM, including a proper deworming, and mineral program. Ask him/her about Selium deficiency in your state.
Yes, lots of people like to cut corners...calve year round, no vaccinations, no mineral. Save money they say. Just sell junk calves nilly, willy, when you have a group caught up.
Your choice obviously and how much you can talk Dad into change.
A calving SEASON is probably the easiest change you can make. Having your workload in a timely management is just easier.
I'm sure a lot of our members calve year round and make money.
Some farms are buy and sell constantly, some are no management (which sounds like your farm) and some have great management (like @TCRanch )
"IF" you choose management... a 60 day calving season works great. I calve two 60 day calving (Jan/Feb and Sept/Oct - but I am a purebred breeder of over 50 years)
With a calving season, you only have that time to deal with calving. You can actually have a HEALTH program, vaccinating on a timely schedule. Newborns should be given a Selenium shot at birth (I also give A&D shot, dip naval, Inforce 3, weigh and ear tag.)
It sounds like you have also been taught not to trust/believe your vet.
If you are serious about wanting to become a good cattlemen, a vet is your friend.
You need to pay him to come out, look at your operation, explain where you want to make changes and have him advise a HEALTH PROGRAM, including a proper deworming, and mineral program. Ask him/her about Selium deficiency in your state.
Yes, lots of people like to cut corners...calve year round, no vaccinations, no mineral. Save money they say. Just sell junk calves nilly, willy, when you have a group caught up.
Your choice obviously and how much you can talk Dad into change.
A calving SEASON is probably the easiest change you can make. Having your workload in a timely management is just easier.
I'm sure a lot of our members calve year round and make money.
WFfarm
Well-known member
A good bull can be the biggest bang for your buck to improve your herd. You'll do better to overspend on a good bull than several good cows. Look thru your state breeder associations in your state or surrounding areas to find a few breeders near you. Their genetics should be closer suited to your environment. A great bull from Texas or North Dakota may not be best matched to your area. Don't worry about him loosing condition during the breading season, as long as he's getting the job done. You can pamper him in the off season to put on weight. You'll see some nice stout bulls at a breeder's bull sale that will lose condition as soon as they get off the trailer at your farm because he's been grained to look good. Angus is not the only choice for black hide. We've done well crossing with black Simmental and black Limousin.
As someone else already stated you should try to get into a calving season. Be able to pull the bulls out and sell what doesn't get bred. Start out will longer season to start, like 75 or 90 days, and work up to a 45 or 60 after a couple years. Good nutrition and a good mineral program are important especially in the last few months of gestation. It improves cow's colostrum quality and the calves' immunity.
To improve your herd, you need to measure. Keeping good records of your cows and calve weights to get some idea of average daily gains is important. You don't need to weigh every newborn, but weigh a few to get an idea of what your calves are weighing. Invest in a platform scale to individually weigh at weaning if you aren't getting that at the sale barn. Rank you herd. Cull the bottom third and keep replacements from the top third. This method will naturally select the genetics that are best suited to your environment, and your replacements will come from cows that are most fertile and efficient.
As someone else already stated you should try to get into a calving season. Be able to pull the bulls out and sell what doesn't get bred. Start out will longer season to start, like 75 or 90 days, and work up to a 45 or 60 after a couple years. Good nutrition and a good mineral program are important especially in the last few months of gestation. It improves cow's colostrum quality and the calves' immunity.
To improve your herd, you need to measure. Keeping good records of your cows and calve weights to get some idea of average daily gains is important. You don't need to weigh every newborn, but weigh a few to get an idea of what your calves are weighing. Invest in a platform scale to individually weigh at weaning if you aren't getting that at the sale barn. Rank you herd. Cull the bottom third and keep replacements from the top third. This method will naturally select the genetics that are best suited to your environment, and your replacements will come from cows that are most fertile and efficient.
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Local extension. This is not a govt program. It is money that is set aside as part of the National Tobacco Settlement. I understand your mistrust of most govt ag programs and cost sharing. Please do not be afraid to use this program.
The quickest way to fix your problems in my opinion.
1. Get rid of the cows that are outside of a 60-75 day calving window.
2. Mineral program. A good mineral program will increase conception rates
3.Bulls that are better than your cows and can pass those traits to offspring
@Drose you have gotten some very good advice on here, just about solving all your problems and laying out a blue print for success. As suggested, get a vet to com eout and see what is causing the deaths, set you up on a vaccination program, and a plan to deal with the tick problem. Get the county extensionagent to help you get soil samples tested, and they will give you a report detailing the proper N,P, and N mix,. as well las what minerals need to be added. Get rid of te Char bull, and any Char or spotted cows, any horned cows, and any, even a black one, that lost a calf or didn't breed back on time. Use this money to buy heifers with their first calf on their side, or 2nd calf cows, if you want some more. As far as a replacement bull, that will be a lot easier than you think. @Jeanne - Simme Valley raises as fine a Simmental as you fill find anywhere. She can sell you a homo for black and polled bull. @gizmom down in the Fla panhandle has the best Angus I have seen . @simme down in SC raises Simmangus. You can trust any of these 3 to be honest and fair with you...their reputations are impeccable. 20 miles from me is the 3rd largest Brangus breeder in the world, Salacoa Valley owned by the Seminole tribe. They also produce UltraBlacks. There are probably more on here that are just as reputable with just as fine cattle. Personally, I would feel comfortable purchasing a bull from any of these from pics, videos and pedigrees that sent me, but I have been watching and reading and listening to these for a few years now. @kenny thomas can transport a bull form any of these places, if you can't go get it yourself. If I were you, I'd check on that Ky Tobacco program and see just how much money I could get toward a bull, and then hit these people up about possibly buying one from them.
Don't know if he retains them all or sells some too, but @Ky hills has built a hell of a program using Hereford, Angus and Black Simmental cows and bulls. He has even used commercial cross bred bulls that he has raised inn developing his herd. Dunno how far he is form you, but IF he offers any heifers for sale each year, I would buy every one of them he'd sell. Nothing is certain, but if you sent KY the EPDs on your bull, I would feel comfortable buying open heifers from him.
Dunno how you are set as far as time and money goes, but you do all of these things, and by this time 2024 your posts will be all about your pride in your progress and a possitive attitude for the future.
Don't know if he retains them all or sells some too, but @Ky hills has built a hell of a program using Hereford, Angus and Black Simmental cows and bulls. He has even used commercial cross bred bulls that he has raised inn developing his herd. Dunno how far he is form you, but IF he offers any heifers for sale each year, I would buy every one of them he'd sell. Nothing is certain, but if you sent KY the EPDs on your bull, I would feel comfortable buying open heifers from him.
Dunno how you are set as far as time and money goes, but you do all of these things, and by this time 2024 your posts will be all about your pride in your progress and a possitive attitude for the future.
