What's it gonna take...

[Lucky_P]

There are good commercial-type Shorthorns out there, but you have to know where to look for them; I too would like to see some carried by 'major' semen services... but don't know when or if that will happen. Select Sires has a couple... but they're not what I'd choose to use in my program.

We've used all four of the red Waukaru sires at Origen, as well as a couple more from the Cattle Visions offerings (RS DV 729 01 034 04 & A&T Captain Obvious 606S).
Went over to Shorthorn because most of the Angus genetics we'd used had just been very disappointing. Have been very pleased - and impressed/surprised - with the performance the SH sires we've used have brought to the table. I'm convinced that commercial producers are missing the boat by not considering Shorthorn genetics in a crossbreeding program - but I'm also aware that 'commercial-oriented' Shortie bulls are not as readily available as are some other breeds.
Growth on the SH-sired steers has been far better than Angus-sired calves, and comparable to Simmental-sired steers. Shorthorn-sired heifers(mostly out of 3/4AN-1/4SM cows) are just coming into production, so the jury is still out on how they're gonna perform as cows.
Weighed my spring calves yesterday; SH-sired steers and heifers were at the top of the group; Angus at the bottom.

Our experiences with the Waukaru SH bulls at Genex:
W. Goldmine 2109 - extreme calving ease - I'm comfortable using him on virtually any heifer of any breed; growth is good; have several Goldmine daughters that are making nice cows.
W. Coppertop 464 - not a heifer bull, but have had no calving issues. Steers are top-notch, daughters are looking really nice.
W. Gold Card 5042 - didn't seem to nick well with our cows, but in retrospect, he was bred mostly to bottom-end cows... have 2 or 3 daughters that are looking good, first will calve this spring
W. Patent 8161 - first calves will be hitting the ground in March. Top 1% of breed for WW/YW
Had the opportunity to use semen on Waukaru Orion 2047 (a Patent son out of a Coppertop daughter)...calves were GREAT!

Had a small group of Orion and Coppertop-sired steers in a feedout trial...115 head total, 5 of my 8 steers were in the top 30, all in the top 1/2, one Orion son was the top steer overall for WDA, ADG, HCW, Dressing %, REA, % retail product, and overall profitability; YG2,graded low Choice.

Steers sired by the RS 034 bull were really good, daughters are great; Capt. Obvious calves came up a bit short on growth, only one CO daughter stayed - she ain't much to look at, but has done a nice job with her first calf.

 

[Muddy]

I'm convinced that commercial producers are missing the boat by not considering Shorthorn genetics in a crossbreeding program

Convinced or just a guess? Shorthorns are a good maternal cattle, but I'm not sure about crossbreeding program especially with angus. Shorthorns have the least heterosis when crossbreeding with black Angus, out of various breeds. Some shorthorns didn't nick very well with most Angus cattle and the calves is just nothing to look at. Sometimes the hybrid vigor isn't there till it shows up in 3way cross.

 

[Jake]

I'm convinced that commercial producers are missing the boat by not considering Shorthorn genetics in a crossbreeding program

Convinced or just a guess? Shorthorns are a good maternal cattle, but I'm not sure about crossbreeding program especially with angus. Shorthorns have the least heterosis when crossbreeding with black Angus, out of various breeds. Some shorthorns didn't nick very well with most Angus cattle and the calves is just nothing to look at. Sometimes the hybrid vigor isn't there till it shows up in 3way cross.

I've always kind of like roan cows, my first cow was a short horn cross in fact. However the average shorthorn available to the public is of far less quality than an angus, hereford, or simmi. The average commerical producer isn't going to go through the work to find a good one when he already has easier options that are just as beneficial.

 

[Lucky_P]

Convinced, Jake; not just guessing.
Most cows here are 3/4 Angus... but some are 7/8 or more Angus genetics... Shorthorn-sired calves out of those high-percentage Angus females are as good as Simmental-sired calves out of the same cows, usually with a better hip on 'em - and they've left Angus-sired calves in the dust.

I initially went to Shorthorns for maternal traits... but I'm getting good 'terminal' performance... maybe they are 'materminal'.

 

[Muddy]

Convinced, Jake; not just guessing.
Most cows here are 3/4 Angus... but some are 7/8 or more Angus genetics... Shorthorn-sired calves out of those high-percentage Angus females are as good as Simmental-sired calves out of the same cows, usually with a better hip on 'em - and they've left Angus-sired calves in the dust.

I initially went to Shorthorns for maternal traits... but I'm getting good 'terminal' performance... maybe they are 'materminal'.

Lucky_P, I'm not fully convinced that most Shorthorns are blew off the door against an Angus. I have some commercial shorthorns here and I hasn't see anything that will out best an Angus cross. Lot of disappoints.

 

[Jake]

Convinced, Jake; not just guessing.
Most cows here are 3/4 Angus... but some are 7/8 or more Angus genetics... Shorthorn-sired calves out of those high-percentage Angus females are as good as Simmental-sired calves out of the same cows, usually with a better hip on 'em - and they've left Angus-sired calves in the dust.

I initially went to Shorthorns for maternal traits... but I'm getting good 'terminal' performance... maybe they are 'materminal'.

But you are putting more effort into finding those right cattle is my point. The vast majority of producers at least in this geography don't put that much effort in chasing the right type of animal. They want what is easy and finding non clubby shorties around here is not easy.

 

[turning grass into beef]

Jake; you stated that producers in your area do not put that much effort into chasing the right type of animal. Are you talking about producers that earn a living from the production of beef or are you talking about hobby ranchers. For those producers in north central Kansas that are serious about using good quality shorthorn bulls, it is only 300 miles from Salina to Creston Iowa. I would humbly suggest that those producers that are not willing to travel 300 miles to find the right breeding piece for their herd are really not trying to achieve all that they can with their herd.

 

[Jake]

Jake; you stated that producers in your area do not put that much effort into chasing the right type of animal. Are you talking about producers that earn a living from the production of beef or are you talking about hobby ranchers. For those producers in north central Kansas that are serious about using good quality shorthorn bulls, it is only 300 miles from Salina to Creston Iowa. I would humbly suggest that those producers that are not willing to travel 300 miles to find the right breeding piece for their herd are really not trying to achieve all that they can with their herd.

Yes I am saying that in our area where a large percentage of producers are farmers first and cattlemen second that they are going to use the popular breeds and breeders in the area. We are one of few who goes a long ways out of the area to purchase our bulls. They are using the type of animal they feel will benefit their herd, but what is there incentive to chase a breed that is unpopular, receives a large dock and that quality is hard to come by without a fair amount of travel? Are these bulls enough cheaper that there is a significant economic advantage? What do they really add that cannot be added through the use of readily available genetics?

I'm not ranting against shorthorns, I'm just trying to make the point as to why the majority of smaller niche breeds have an uphill climb. The perception of these breeds is quite negative most places and high quality genetics, while out there, are not readily available to the majority of beef producers.

 

[Muddy]

I agreed with Jake on everything he said. The quality red solid Shorthorns without club calf influence, are hard to find and often they're too far away. And they better be polled. Shorthorn chrome will hurts you at most sale barns and it has nothing to do with the longhorn chrome. You can buying shorthorn calves and roan cows at cheap prices at any sale barns here, that's enough to makes the seller unhappy.

Another factor is the other breeds (Hereford, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Charolais and Limousin) are readily available and they do excellent in crossbreeding with the common angus, even if these Angus are bottom end cows.

 

[Son of Butch]

I agree with Jake on everything he said.
Another factor is the other breeds (Hereford, Simmental, Gelbvieh, Charolais and Limousin) are [more] readily available
and they do excellent in crossbreeding with the common angus,

:nod:

 

[Lucky_P]

I won't argue with y'all on many of those points.

Enough cows carrying the red gene in my herd that I'm getting some red calves... push-back/discount has been minimal to nonexistent the last 2-3 years... do I anticipate getting a premium for reds? No, red is not yet the new black.
I like red cattle, and while it ticks me off to get docked for red calves that are essentially 3/4-7/8 sibs to the blacks - and are every bit as good... I like having them in the herd. With only 75 cows, I probably qualify as a hobby breeder, but I expect the cows to pay their own way and provide some profit.

Chrome... Yeah, I've got one family of cows that carry the Simmental spotting gene... sometimes throw a lot of chrome... and I take a hit... but they do it with Angus, solid black Simmentals, as well as with Shorthorns; good enough cows that I'll just roll with the punch. There are some roan and r/w/m Shorties I'd love to use... but I'm not gonna... I'd like some more Pinzgauer-cross cows, too, but I'm not gonna take the hit those skunk-tailed calves will take when the buyers steal them as 'Longhorn-crosses'.

I don't even have any idea where the closest non-showring-type Shorthorn breeder is to me... but I can get semen on some good ones. Most of the breeders of Angus & Simmental sires we've used by AI in the last 10 years are not located anywhere near here...same for the Braunvieh sires I'm planning to sample this fall.

I grew up in east-central AL... only recall seeing one herd that had some OLD Shorthorn/Hereford crosses in my area. Moved to southern middle TN after vet school... there was only one Shorthorn breeder in my practice area (3-4 counties). Rarely saw any in mid-MO, there are none within 100+ miles of me here in KY, so far as I know. But the Shorthorn sires we've used in our crossbreeding program have done an outstanding job for us. You don't have to use them, but you might be surprised at just how good they can be.

 

[shortybreeder]

I think I may have found a bull in Australia that would do a good job in the US, and I'm wondering if anyone else agrees that he looks intriguing. He is 4 years old, has done a great job on commercial cows, and has proved himself worthy of breeding registered cows. His dam is 11 years old and still producing good calves every year. I saw her 5 days post-calving, and I wish my dad's dairy cows had udders as good as her! His feet are still perfect, and if you took a half inch off her front toes she'd be perfect too. He doesn't have a white hair on him anywhere, so black calves will still be black.
I don't own any semen/marketing rights yet, but I am curious if this is what commercial guys are interested in? Am I way off the mark, or does he interest you guys?

 

[shortybreeder]

Here is a picture of his dams udder, so you all know I'm not just full of "be nice"

She isn't the flashiest/prettiest cow in the world, and she probably wouldn't win a class in Denver, but how often do those pretty females actually go off to become great cows? She's functional, honest, and doesn't need excuses.

I want honest opinions on the bull and how likely people are to give him a shot, even on a small scale of 10-20 units. I personally am pretty excited about him. I've been in Australia for over 3 months so far, and was convinced that I wouldn't find anything worth bringing back. Until I found this bull. But, I've been wrong before!

 

[frieghttrain]

I think I may have found a bull in Australia that would do a good job in the US, and I'm wondering if anyone else agrees that he looks intriguing. He is 4 years old, has done a great job on commercial cows, and has proved himself worthy of breeding registered cows. His dam is 11 years old and still producing good calves every year. I saw her 5 days post-calving, and I wish my dad's dairy cows had udders as good as her! His feet are still perfect, and if you took a half inch off her front toes she'd be perfect too. He doesn't have a white hair on him anywhere, so black calves will still be black.
I don't own any semen/marketing rights yet, but I am curious if this is what commercial guys are interested in? Am I way off the mark, or does he interest you guys?

He looks nice. Where in MN are you?

 

[frieghttrain]

And how much per unit?

 

[shortybreeder]

I'm just a little ways north of Rochester. I'm thinking the price per unit would need to be around $50, but we haven't gotten all the costs figured out yet.

 

[Muddy]

I would be leery of using spotting gene carrier bulls as a commercial bull. His dam is pretty good chromed up.

 

[shortybreeder]

I would be leery of using spotting gene carrier bulls as a commercial bull. His dam is pretty good chromed up.

The bull has absolutely no white on him, so he isn't a carrier of spotting. A solid red bull will only throw solid calves when bred to solid cows.

 

[Muddy]

I would be leery of using spotting gene carrier bulls as a commercial bull. His dam is pretty good chromed up.

The bull has absolutely no white on him, so he isn't a carrier of spotting. A solid red bull will only throw solid calves when bred to solid cows.

You need to studying spotting genes a little more. Spotting gene is a recessive gene and can be hidden for many generations. A solid bull and a solid cow can produce a spotted calf if both parents have a spotting gene. Majority cows of commercial producers are crossbred cows.