Heifer problems - what is it this year?

[faster horses]

I would have to think consumption would be based mostly on available phos in the environment, combined with normal salt cravings. Cows don't crave any other minerals.

Whether they 'crave' them or not, they are needed. John Patterson, MSU, did extensive studies on mineral in Montana and what he found has helped thousands of producers. Our soil/forage in Mt is lacking in copper and zinc. Those minerals missing in the diet caused many different kinds of problems in cattle (lower immune system issues show up in many ways). He published his findings, but that was many years ago. Our old neighbor in Montana called after we had moved, Said he had terrible hoof rot in EVERYTHING. I called John Patterson to visit with him and he said what they found in SW Mt was that the water contained sulfates that was tying up copper and zinc. He said, and I quote "the sulfates in the water is picking the producers pockets over there."The mineral our old neighbor was using had only 1250 ppm copper. I don't remember the zinc amount because this was years back. He said that area needed 2500 ppm copper. We got our neighbor to use a formula with 2500 ppm copper and after he got through that hoof rot episode, he got along fine.

Here is a link. Go to the 7th paragraph and read from there.

Copper deficiency a problem when sulfates are high | The Western Producer

Last summer, we had significant water quality issues in parts of Saskatchewan and Alberta that affected the cattle population. The low levels of rainfall

www.producer.com

 

[faster horses]

You have to throw the seasons though in the mix. The study must have been done in an area where you have pasture all year, or only over a limited time during pasture season.
I wonder how much difference there is in consumption between pasture season and the feeding season, add the cold temperatures etc.
Be interesting to see what the actual consumption difference would be.

The seasons don't matter, the quality and quantity of forage is what matters. When cattle are fed hay in the winter, depending on the quality of hay, they could eat less or eat more. That's why you keep track for a year. Example, a customer bought an overhead cake bin to put his mineral in. He drove under it with a cake feeder on the back of his pickup and fed the mineral with that. There was no way of knowing how much mineral was in the cake feeder. What we did know was how many head he had, we knew the day the bin was filled and we knew when it was empty. This was winter time. When the bin was empty we figured up the consumption. 3.5 oz a day; right on target.

On the 'lick test' the cows had to come in from grazing, go through a gate to get to water.
The blocks were in the pen on a wooden bunk.
A college student got a grant to measure the 'licks' the cows did on the salt or mineral, both were provided. Then he had to measure the block(s) when the cow left after licking. He found 2000 licks to use an oz of the blocks.

 

[Ebenezer]

Maybe somebody asked but are they sired by a different bull than past crops of heifers or from a different source? The maternal granddam has a lot to do with calving issues and birthweight but a different sire can, too.

 

[Silver]

Whether they 'crave' them or not, they are needed. John Patterson, MSU, did extensive studies on mineral in Montana and what he found has helped thousands of producers. Our soil/forage in Mt is lacking in copper and zinc. Those minerals missing in the diet caused many different kinds of problems in cattle (lower immune system issues show up in many ways). He published his findings, but that was many years ago. Our old neighbor in Montana called after we had moved, Said he had terrible hoof rot in EVERYTHING. I called John Patterson to visit with him and he said what they found in SW Mt was that the water contained sulfates that was tying up copper and zinc. He said, and I quote "the sulfates in the water is picking the producers pockets over there."The mineral our old neighbor was using had only 1250 ppm copper. I don't remember the zinc amount because this was years back. He said that area needed 2500 ppm copper. We got our neighbor to use a formula with 2500 ppm copper and after he got through that hoof rot episode, he got along fine.

Here is a link. Go to the 7th paragraph and read from there.

Copper deficiency a problem when sulfates are high | The Western Producer

Last summer, we had significant water quality issues in parts of Saskatchewan and Alberta that affected the cattle population. The low levels of rainfall

www.producer.com

Point being craving for salt and phos drives consumption. They don't consume because they are short of copper.

 

[Silver]

1oz per head per day. You probably didn't stick around to see how many cows licked on it or for how long.

Well, you are the one that claimed that 2000 licks was the magic number they would not go past and therefore would not consume an ounce. I showed that is hogwash.

 

[faster horses]

Point being craving for salt and phos drives consumption. They don't consume because they are short of copper.

I guess I forgot. You know more than me about the subject. Excuse me.
I'll try to remember that from here on out.

 

[Silver]

I guess I forgot. You know more than me about the subject. Excuse me.
I'll try to remember that from here on out.

You are welcome to be as snarky as you want. You might not believe it but I've raised a few cows and have a little experience. I also get a little weary of the know it all attitude of a sales person that can magically tell someone 1000 miles away what their cows are lacking and how to fix it.

 

[gcreekrch]

You are welcome to be as snarky as you want. You might not believe it but I've raised a few cows and have a little experience. I also get a little weary of the know it all attitude of a sales person that can magically tell someone 1000 miles away what their cows are lacking and how to fix it.

FH and her husband had 200 cows for years Silver. They also service an area that has a lot more cows in it than Toad River BC. While I can agree with some of your sentiments, if you have never used a mineral custom made for your operation how would you know whether you are correct in your thinking.
We we're having various health problems in our herd years back and FH is partly responsible for helping us solve them with a change of mineral mix.
She and the nutritionist and the vet on staff gave freely of their knowledge knowing their company would never sell me a bag of their mineral. For that I will back her 100%.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

Easy now fellas. You are bringing up the exact reason why I mostly hesitate to post anything with a question. I don't like ending up in a situation where a know it all starts to argue the point and makes the other person feel like **** and like a dumb idiot.
Stop arguing.
The reason why I brought up seasons in the 'licking salt/minerals".......never paid attention to, but when it's freezing cold, really freezing cold, water pipes burst cold......... would they tend to LICK less. Just because of temperature, not because of craving, not craving etc.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

P.S.: I'm not saying either one is right or wrong.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

Maybe somebody asked but are they sired by a different bull than past crops of heifers or from a different source? The maternal granddam has a lot to do with calving issues and birthweight but a different sire can, too.

No, they are not from different stock.
I'm starting to think it comes down to environmental factors (very cold winter) and probably lack of something, if it is certain minerals or lack of something in the feed (hay).
Others in the area noticed some unexplained larger calves in cows and heifers too, which would probably fit the cold winter/higher consumption of feed narrative.

Figuring out why our heifers seem to do poorly this year (not all of them) I don't know at this point, was it something during last summer/pasture or something due to feed in the winter.........suppose it's all after the fact now.

 

[Silver]

FH and her husband had 200 cows for years Silver. They also service an area that has a lot more cows in it than Toad River BC. While I can agree with some of your sentiments, if you have never used a mineral custom made for your operation how would you know whether you are correct in your thinking.
We we're having various health problems in our herd years back and FH is partly responsible for helping us solve them with a change of mineral mix.
She and the nutritionist and the vet on staff gave freely of their knowledge knowing their company would never sell me a bag of their mineral. For that I will back her 100%.

Toad River is hundreds of miles from here so I don't get your point on that. Williams Lake might be a closer comparison, I'm not sure.
I have no doubt the FH s knowledgeable about the areas that she is familiar with and cares about helping people. However, even "experts" make false assumptions and it can be misleading if not harmful. I don't doubt that the good folks at Vigortone could make valid recommendations for my operation IF they had accurate feed and soil analysis and a health history of my place.
Because you mentioned it ( nobody including FH has ever asked) I actually have been feeding a mineral custom blended for my area for two years. I'm always interested to see if I'm missing something. Sometimes you don't know you had a problem until it goes away. I believe I will give it one more year. But this far by carefully documenting calves treated, mortality, herd conception, herd health, weaning weights etc. I have not yet seen a difference. But I will feed it one more year and study it hard before making a decision.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sorry - but "I" believe there is a major difference in comparing what our Canadians' cattle require and what our US cattle require. Through many conversations, some Canadians that have GREAT cow herds with great performance - do NOT need the trace minerals that our cattle need.
Our cattle do NOT get enough trace minerals from a BLOCK. There is about enough minerals in a block to provide requirements for one cow's daily requirement. A block is 99% salt. They are colored so you feel good about feeding them.

 

[Silver]

Sorry - but "I" believe there is a major difference in comparing what our Canadians' cattle require and what our US cattle require. Through many conversations, some Canadians that have GREAT cow herds with great performance - do NOT need the trace minerals that our cattle need.
Our cattle do NOT get enough trace minerals from a BLOCK. There is about enough minerals in a block to provide requirements for one cow's daily requirement. A block is 99% salt. They are colored so you feel good about feeding them.

I think even here needs vary widely. Nesikep for example I believe has to feed copper at levels that would be toxic to my cows because it gets tied up. He could straighten me out on that. In my area some people are low on selenium, others are high. But in general, in my region I would guess more cows don't get mineral than do. And when you talk to those that do many aren't sure if it pays.

 

[faster horses]

FWIW, I didn't even notice sunnyblueskies was from Alberda. I was just addressing her problem in general, hoping to shed some light on the problems she mentioned.
We had extensive health problems in our cattle in the 80's and early 90's, so much so that we moved from one end of Montana to the other. The Vigortone area sales manager came to our place and identified the problem--our cattle were copper deficient. We had searched for 9 years to find an answer to the problems we were having. We tried everything to solve it, except mineral. But that's what the problem was and as soon as we added a year-round mineral program, we hardly ever had a sick calf or had anything that needed to be doctored. It saved our whole operation. We were ready to quit. So after going through that, we decided to help anyone we could so they wouldn't have to go through what we did. I see things, I hear things, problems that don't need to exist when you get the immune system as good as it can be...which is accomplished with adding a mineral program.

Sick cattle aren't normal, healthy cattle are normal.

I intend to avoid conversations like this in the future.

Thank you for your kind words, gcreek. It's fun to work with someone who wants to find a better way.
Edited to add: You are a class act, gcreek. It's an honor to know you.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

Minerals could be a problem in our situation. But it would be a year to year different problem. Because we never had THIS problem here with our heifers before as far as I can recall.
As to what deficiencies cattle have in what area......I don't think you can generalize Canadian Cattle and US Cattle. Don't think you can even go county to county. Like Silver said, it comes down to Farm to Farm.
I appreciate EVERYONES input and opinions, there is always something to learn. Just don't like the arguing.

 

[Silver]

Minerals could be a problem in our situation. But it would be a year to year different problem. Because we never had THIS problem here with our heifers before as far as I can recall.
As to what deficiencies cattle have in what area......I don't think you can generalize Canadian Cattle and US Cattle. Don't think you can even go county to county. Like Silver said, it comes down to Farm to Farm.
I appreciate EVERYONES input and opinions, there is always something to learn. Just don't like the arguing.

Can I ask what part of Alberta you are in?

 

[sunnyblueskies]

Can I ask what part of Alberta you are in?

NE Alberta.

 

[Silver]

NE Alberta.

Thanks. As far NE as I've been is through Lloyd. Some good looking cattle country out that way. I've haven't been to Smoky Lake but it seems to me a lot of my calves have though.

 

[sunnyblueskies]

We are north of Smoky Lake, kind of in the triangle of the MD of Bonnyville, County of St. Paul and County of Lac La Biche. Our farm is only cattle country, not good enough for grain really.

What do you mean with your calves have been to Smoky Lake?