What's a bull worth?

[alftn]

I think BRG made my point fairly well....

 

[Cattleman200]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: What's a bull worth?
by alftn on Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:07 pm

I think BRG made my point fairly well....
He did a great job supporting mine also.


Circle H Ranch

 

[EAT BEEF]

IMO no bull is really worth more than $2,000-$3,000.Doesn't mean I wouldn't spend more on a bull,or sell one for more if I had people fighting over one.

 

[alacattleman]

Sure , If he had 250 head and paid 25,000$ for a bull, collected semen and AI them, 10 years in a role .I am sure he could come out ahead....and improve his herd...

Going out and finding the best bull for your program in the entire country and then using him AI (where he could be siring calves for 25++ years) may be the fastest way to make genetic progress.....though I suspect that there really isn't a hair's worth of difference between a $25,000 bull and BRG's $9000 one.[/quote] heard somebody say theres a bigger difference between a 1500 to 5000 dollar bull, then there are a 5000 to 50.000

 

[turning grass into beef]

sorry for the delayed response alftn;
I was just using 3 years as an example. It is a good average to work with. We have had bulls that did not make the 1st year because they got hurt. We have also had bulls that we used for 6-8 breeding seasons. It just depends.
Around here if you are paying $1500 for a 2 year old bull then probably that bull should have been hamburger. $1800 - $2000 is about the bottom end that you should expect to pay for good quality 2 year old bulls.
Someone else in this thread mentioned that they don't worry about pedigrees and ribbons. They look at the program and how the cowherd is managed. I could not agree more. That should be a top priority when looking for a bull. Find a breeder that runs his cows the way you run yours. If your cows never see a feed bucket and the bull you are thinking of buying always has his nose in one, then you will probably not be happy with him.

 

[WichitaLineMan]

If you can't (as a commercial producer) find all the bull you'd ever need for $2,000 then you aren't looking hard enough.

 

[dun]

They look at the program and how the cowherd is managed. I could not agree more. That should be a top priority when looking for a bull.

Just to emphasize, the same thing goes for cows, in my mind even more so.

 

[Brandonm22]

Just to emphasize, the same thing goes for cows, in my mind even more so.

Exactly. If you really want to, you can take ten pounds of bull test out to some grain fattened pig of a bull EVERY DAY when you check on the cows and park him on your best 3 acre paddock of improved pasture with a horse hay quality roll bale, protein tub, and daily snacks in the 305 days he doesn't work (if I ever pay $9000 for one, that IS how he will be treated whether he needs it or not!) and the costs would really be minimal. You buy 50 cows on the other hand and they had better be able too work in your conditions.

 

[cypressfarms]

I tend to agree that most commercial cattlemen will not be paying $9000 for a bull.

so you're saying there is a situation where the commercial guy could spend $9k and make money on it? :cowboy:

Not me!, but you never know, there could be someone out there doing it; it just seems kind of far fetched.

 

[BamaCowboy]

In my thought $2000 bull on commercial cows is all the bull power your cows will need. If you are saleing calves across the scales at the local sale barn $2000 bull enough , so if after a couple of calf crops if not producing what you are needing , cull him out and try another

 

[Aero]

I don't want to sound rude or arrogant, but we have averaged over $3000 on our last 7 sales. So I guess their must be a few reasons to spend more than $2500 per bull.

i have no problem with you telling it like it is; i prefer it. from what i have seen, your animals look good and you are riding the crest of the wave into nice profitability. i hope it continues for you, but i encourage you to not plan on it.

even with AI, etc for 3 yrs, etc, it's still too much risk into one animal. if the buyer had seen 100 calves from that bull and knew the bull's calves would add an extra 20 lbs over any other bull they could buy and the calves would all grade Ch+, the bull still wouldn't be worth $10k. if those calves got a $40/hd premium over the half-brother that sold for $2k, they would have to market 200 calves before he broke even (much less made a return on the investment). the chances of him being that much better than the average half-brother is slight and more likely if the expensive bull's calves were worth more it would only be a couple of dollars per hd meaning they would have to market 1000+ calves to just break even on the investment.

Sure, they might have paid that much but that has very little to do with it being a sound investment in the end.

like i said, it's just too much risk in one animal.

as far as seedstock folks playing by different economic rules, a closed herd negates the opportunity for spending too much on bigger, better, faster genetics. after you have your base herd, there is no more buying.

 

[HerefordSire]

After going through the fun process of selling my first bull, I got the full load of what it takes to get a bull ready for sale, especially if he crosses state lines. I learned a lot, but I sold my bull for a pretty low price because I wasn't sure if he was top notch. He's going to do great for his new owners, but I took care of my uneasiness of pricing bulls in the future by making sure I cut the ones that wouldn't make the cut for next year. (No pun intended.) However, in some reading material, I have learned that a bull is worth roughly the value of 5 cows. At our prices, a bull is worth around $3000, depending on bred or killer cows, which should get you a pretty nice bull. Even an average bull is worth something because a live calf that gets put on the truck is worth far more than one that never makes it into the world. So, when you go buy bulls, do you look for the one that costs the least and will get the job done, or do you figure he's worth more than just 5 cows and really pay attention to paying good money for a good bull? It seems people try to spend as little as possible on bulls, and yet will only look at ones that have a pretty good price tag. As a young seedstock breeder, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

I got two bulls. i can sell the first to you for $100 and the other for $10K. Which one is better?

 

[blackcowz]

Alright folks, everyone knows where everyone else stands in terms of what to pay for bulls, what qualities they look for, etc. HS, could depend on how much better the 100K bull is. (here we go again) But, I think in 4 pages of posts, opinions have been sufficiently explained. Now shut 'er down before we start knocking other operations or other people. Thanks again for all the great insight.

Edit: Got dizzy watching two of them!

 

[HerefordSire]

Alright folks, everyone knows where everyone else stands in terms of what to pay for bulls, what qualities they look for, etc. HS, could depend on how much better the 100K bull is. (here we go again) But, I think in 4 pages of posts, opinions have been sufficiently explained. Now shut 'er down before we start knocking other operations or other people. Thanks again for all the great insight.

Wrong. The higher priced bull is always better. Remember that next time you sell a bull.

 

[Brandonm22]

as far as seedstock folks playing by different economic rules, a closed herd negates the opportunity for spending too much on bigger, better, faster genetics. after you have your base herd, there is no more buying.

Of course, you are making the dangerous assumption that the industry will want what your closed herd is producing today, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, 20 years from now. I think most seedstock guys would rather do it your way if they thought they could get away with it. The marketplace however is fickle. The buyers want the hottest EPD, the newest pedigree, the newest DNA test, calves from the bull who won the last fair, the then en vogue phenotype, etc. They want to be able too brag about their bull's daddy, his scrotal circumference EPD, his feed efficiency genetic marker, his height, his butt, his weaning weight, etc etc. A lot of seedstock guys have to spend a lot of money to bring their buyers whatever it is the buyers want. An Aero bred bull sired by an Aero bred bull and out of an Aero bred cow MIGHT be marketable.....and it might not.

 

[Cattleman200]

Aero wrote:
as far as seedstock folks playing by different economic rules, a closed herd negates the opportunity for spending too much on bigger, better, faster genetics. after you have your base herd, there is no more buying.
If every seedstock producer used this mentality they would all be out of business because with their closed herd no one would be buying ANYTHING.

Circle H Ranch

 

[Herefords.US]

If every seedstock producer used this mentality they would all be out of business because with their closed herd no one would be buying ANYTHING.

Circle H Ranch

Edited for specificity:

Closed herd linebreeding certainly isn't for everyone! The fickle or the vain shouldn't even attempt it!

George

 

[Cattleman200]

Report this postReply with quoteRe: What's a bull worth?
by Herefords.US on Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:23 pm

Cattleman200 wrote:
If every seedstock producer used this mentality they would all be out of business because with their closed herd no one would be buying ANYTHING.

Circle H Ranch

Linebreeding certainly isn't for everyone! The fickle or the vain shouldn't even attempt it!

George
Im not talking about Line Breeding . Im talking about if every Seedstock Producer has a closed herd.


Circle H Ranch

 

[EAT BEEF]

Are you saying you don't sell any cattle to commercial guys :?: I was thinking that was the point of breeding seedstock. :???:

 

[greatgerts]

Alright folks, everyone knows where everyone else stands in terms of what to pay for bulls, what qualities they look for, etc. HS, could depend on how much better the 100K bull is. (here we go again) But, I think in 4 pages of posts, opinions have been sufficiently explained. Now shut 'er down before we start knocking other operations or other people. Thanks again for all the great insight.

Wrong. The higher priced bull is always better. Remember that next time you sell a bull.

Are you serious? How can you keep saying that the higher dollar bull is ALWAYS better? I have seen decent bulls sell for more than what they are worth, or the bull had some pretty fantastic numbers behind him and some really good bulls not sell very high because of the MARKET that day.