What's a bull worth?

[turning grass into beef]

This subject was discussed on this forum about 2 years ago. Here was my opinion at that time and it is the same today.

The following is my way of deciding what to pay for a bull. Take it for what it is worth. The first thing to consider is that feeding a good quality bull year round costs the same as feeding a poor quality bull, so that is a wash. The next thing I assume is that you will use a bull on average for 3 years and on average he will sire 33 calves per year. For round figures we will use 100 calves sired in his lifetime. Let's assume that a poor quality bull costs $1000. A bull that costs $2000 will have to return $10 more per calf than the $1000 bull. If you sell 500 pound calves that is a $0.02 per pound difference. 2 questions then have to be analyzed. 1) Will the calves sired by the good bull bring a premium of $0.02 or more because of their quality? and 2) Will the calves off the good bull weigh more (at the same age), thus you will have more pounds of calf to sell.
If you are keeping your own replacements a third question that will need to be considered is; How will a better quality bull improve my cowherd and thus my calf crop in years to come?
We raise and sell 2 year old purebred shorthorn bulls. We use our bulls, as well as buy purebred 2 year old horned hereford bulls to use in our commercial cow herd. Based on the reasons stated above we have no problem paying between $3000 and $4000 for a bull if we feel his quality justifies the price.

 

[alftn]

Hey TGIB, are you saying 3 years is the length of time you use a bull and that is his usefull life, then off to hambuger...Question how long can a bull used to breed cattle ? is a 7 year old is to old?? 10 ?

I can buy pretty good Bulls Here in west Tn., black angus or polled hereford fo 1500$ but pretty good here may not be Average elsewhere...

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This is an interesting topic for discussion. There may be as many answers as there are people answering the question. What is "anything" worth to anyone? It would ultimately be resolved by a determination of WHAT the person desires, and WHY they desire it. This is another example of semantics, or the meanings of "WORDS".

Frankie's post on this thread covers the subject more succinctly than some of the others. Wes Ishmael's article that she quoted here covers the entire spectrum of the question, - BUT does nothing to really help one with a definition protocol to really "hang your hat on" and anchor in on future sales opportunities.

Let's approach this subject of WORTH with a little circumspection, and focus on some specific details, rather than 'pie-in-the-sky' platitudes and clichés which we hear most of the time this subject comes up – as factual and true as they may be (and, actually, ARE!)

Definition of WORTH: used interchangeably with "Value" when applied to the desirability of something material when measured by its equivalence in money, goods, or exchange importance or benefits.

Definition of MATERIAL: (in this instance insofar as Beef Production is concerned): …of the body, or bodily needs, satisfactions, fondness of comfort, pleasure, wealth or worldly successes. That is a long explanation of saying that an item (Bull – in this discussion) satisfies, gratifies, or rewards the needs or desires of the potential purchaser(s). Perhaps those desires are to improve the Genetics of the breeder's herd, or his desire to utilize the bull for advertising and marketing purposes, or, to enhance his own ego! Whatever HIS particular desires, benefits, needs, satisfactions, pleasures or worldly success levels happen to be, then WORTH is VALUE to him.

The definitions given by most of the Forum members all have merit. Cattleman200, In My Opinion, nailed it exactly, from the buyer's point of view. "It is where you are in your program, and what you want the end result to be IN that program."
WORTH and VALUE and MATERIAL are ALL in the eye of the beholder! If the bull is worth it to him, it is WORTH it to him. How he arrives at the ultimate point of decision to purchase the bull is his determination. Your obligation and purpose as the seller is to convince the potential buyer that your bull (product) fits his needs and desires, and is WORTH the "benefits offered".

DOC HARRIS

 

[SRBeef]

This is an interesting topic with interesting replies.

The idea that anything is "worth what the customer is willing (and able) to pay" seems like a universal definition of value.

I like the comment about looking as a bull as an investment, not an expense. But the opportunity to produce a positive return on that investment varies greatly by the size of the herd the bull will be servicing as well as the end market the bull's calves will enter (for example freezer beef vs salebarn calves vs seedstock).

A smaller operator can not pay as much for a bull as a larger operator.
To date there have been 23 responses to this topic. Not ONE of them has mentioned EPD's as a measure of determining the worth of a bull. I find this surprising.

Like Weaver, my #1 criteria for a bull is calving ease since about the only assistance I am able to provide at calving time is counting them, usually several days after they are on the ground. So if a bull does not have good calving ease he is not worth much to me at least. How am I going to know this is a likely to be a calving ease bull unless I have good, reliable, EPD data? Especially on young virgin bulls with no calves of their own on the ground yet?

Interesting.

Jim

 

[Alberta farmer]

In my opinion the most important thing in buying a bull is the guy who raised him and how he raised him. Big names and pedigrees and a feed bucket don't really cut it with me. Knowing the breeder is honest, raises a practical product, fed right is more important to me.
In the last several years I have been using black Angus bulls. Bought from a local breeder whose family has been in the bull business for about 80 years. Seeing his cows out working just about every week I know they are about the best looking cattle in the country. He doesn't take cattle to sales or shows, just sells them all off the farm. When he tells me how the bulls are fed out I know he is telling the truth and you can see it...they aren't shiny fat...just ready to get out there and go to work.
Without a doubt you could buy bulls cheaper but you get pretty well exactly what he says the bull will do. If there is a problem with a bull he takes care of it right now.
That is the kind of breeder I want to deal with. A practical breeder who runs his cattle like a tough commercial operation.

 

[deenranch]

if you think any commercial cattleman can routinely pay $9000 for a bull and it end up being worth it, you are pretty far out of touch with real world economics.

If you buy a $9000 bull and breed 30 cows with him and 10 are heifers. Breed those heifers to a low BW bull and sale them at a special sale. Get $900 for them as med bred then in about 2 years that $9000 bull is paid for on 10 head. This doesn't include the 20 steers that sold for $500..... You can make money with good bulls.... If you buy a junky bull for $1000 and sale 30 calves at the sale barn for $500 you also made good money on that bull....

Main thing is that the person you sold the bull to is happy and you are happy... I sold a bull earlier this year for $2000 to a new customer. The bull was worth $3000 to someone else... I've sold 6 other bulls at $2000 to people this rancher has recommended.... Sometimes it worth taking a cut on an animal to make more on then next ones.....

 

[cypressfarms]

if you think any commercial cattleman can routinely pay $9000 for a bull and it end up being worth it, you are pretty far out of touch with real world economics.

If you buy a $9000 bull and breed 30 cows with him and 10 are heifers. Breed those heifers to a low BW bull and sale them at a special sale. Get $900 for them as med bred then in about 2 years that $9000 bull is paid for on 10 head.

Deen, it's not that simple or everyone raising cattle would be rich. What about the cost to keep the moma cows, bull and heifers for the two years? How about hay,vaccines, minerals, etc. etc. etc.

I tend to agree that most commercial cattlemen will not be paying $9000 for a bull.

 

[user1]

Like there is some magic formula...............oh my calculations say $3,107.96 is the correct answer...........or is it????????????????????????????????

 

[Brandonm22]

"8. A bull should produce two to three times his cost and upkeep in offspring sold before he is sold or turned into hamburger."

I don't know about #8. If a bull sires 30 calves for 3 years at the modest price of $500 a calf (I would rather be able to use $600++; but the market has often been rougher than that these last two years) I come up with $45,000 worth of product he is responsible for. Upkeep on a bull is ~$500 a year (for some people it is half that and some double that) or ~$1500. ($45,000 - $1500)/2 or 3 comes out to $14,500 to $21,750. Show up to MOST bull seller's place and they will sell you one of their 4 best 18 month old bulls and a small cowherd to keep him company.

 

[Frankie]

.....To date there have been 23 responses to this topic. Not ONE of them has mentioned EPD's as a measure of determining the worth of a bull. I find this surprising.

Like Weaver, my #1 criteria for a bull is calving ease since about the only assistance I am able to provide at calving time is counting them, usually several days after they are on the ground. So if a bull does not have good calving ease he is not worth much to me at least. How am I going to know this is a likely to be a calving ease bull unless I have good, reliable, EPD data? Especially on young virgin bulls with no calves of their own on the ground yet?

Interesting.

Jim

I think today EPDs are just a given. There's not a lot of discussion about them anymore. Generally, the people who come here or the bull test station to buy bulls know and understand EPDs. At the test station sales, the catalog has everything known about a bull, pedigree, performance and carcass. When we sell them from home, we put that info into an EXCEL spreadsheet and offer it to a potential buyer when he knocks on the door. Discussions are good; we like to talk about our bulls and their mommas, but EPDs just don't seem to come up in the conversation like they used to.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

With our Longhorns (and probably other LH Breeders) we could care less about EPD's. That is something the "commercial" cattle use (and a roll of the dice when only going by statistics). For a bull, the bottomline for us is what the bull's track record is and what type of calves he helps the female to put on the ground. We look at his progeny (as well as appearance, horn length, and other factors). We also don't have to worry about calf birth weights...probably 99% of LH bulls produce low birthweight calves, and only on a RARE occasion does a LH calf ever have to be pulled. For ease in breeding, we put junior long yearling bulls on our first calf heifers. After the heifer has had her first calf (and has gained more weight), she will be put with a larger senior bull (if that breeding strategy is appropriate for us).

 

[Aero]

Deen, it's not that simple or everyone raising cattle would be rich. What about the cost to keep the moma cows, bull and heifers for the two years? How about hay,vaccines, minerals, etc. etc. etc.

I tend to agree that most commercial cattlemen will not be paying $9000 for a bull.

hmm... and the price of land! :help:

 

[Aero]

I must have missed something that you thought you read. I never saw where this was strictly a commercial cattlemans post. It all depends on what you are doing in your program. I quoted you as saying "there is never a reason to pay more than $2500 for a bull". Im saying that there are sometimes reasons to pay more if you feel the need arises. Blackcowz said he was a young seedstock producer. Many Seedstock producers sell to other seedstock producers as well as commercial cattlemen. Also FYI None of my Seedstock dealings are made in funny money.

Circle H Ranch

i am saying that in my seedstock operation i have "felt the need arise" to spend way beyond $2500 before and it never has played out in the long run to be worth it; it's just too much risk put into one animal. to spend more than this on an unproven animal is asking for problems.

as for seedstock in general, in my humble :lol2: opinion, if a "breeder" is constantly buying other people's animals, they are considered "cattle traders" in my book. make it a closed herd and throw some linebreeding in there and they might qualify as a breeder.

 

[Aero]

I tend to agree that most commercial cattlemen will not be paying $9000 for a bull.

so you're saying there is a situation where the commercial guy could spend $9k and make money on it? :cowboy:

 

[alftn]

Sure , If he had 250 head and paid 25,000$ for a bull, collected semen and AI them, 10 years in a role .I am sure he could come out ahead....and improve his herd...

 

[BRG]

I tend to agree that most commercial cattlemen will not be paying $9000 for a bull.

so you're saying there is a situation where the commercial guy could spend $9k and make money on it? :cowboy:

I wanted to stay out of this and probably should, but I guess I won't.

We sold a $10,500 bull to a commercial producer and another $9,000 bull to another. They both collected the bulls and one has AI'd to him 3 years in a row now while the other AI'd for 4 years in a row, plus they have used them to clean-up behind those same cows. So they saved the money of buying 2 other bulls to cover the cows they AI'd to and they saved the $ by using their own bull to AI to, instead of giving it to Select or some other AI company.

As far as a seedstock producer spending more than $2500 on a bull. I don't care what the bull costs, whether it is $2500 of $25,000. If he improves your program and then your customers, while paying for himself - he is then worth it. We own a bull that cost $30,000 and he actually turned out to be pretty cheap when you figure what he made us. So far we have around 30 daughters in our program, and have sold 25 bulls for an average of a little more than $4000. No Funny Money as you put it. Plus we have sold semen out of him as well.

In our program we have service that goes along with selling bulls, and we seem to get a premium for it. We help place our customers commercial calves into the hands of buyers. Nearly all of our customers get close to steer price for their heifers as we help locate the right buyers. Last Thursday we were at 2 different barns in 2 different states bidding on customers calves. This Thursday we will have a big day in Mobridge, SD and will be bidding on 1000 or more calves. To our customers it is worth a few hundred bucks more per bull to get our marketing on their calves. I don't want to sound rude or arrogant, but we have averaged over $3000 on our last 7 sales. So I guess their must be a few reasons to spend more than $2500 per bull.

 

[Herefords.US]

To date there have been 23 responses to this topic. Not ONE of them has mentioned EPD's as a measure of determining the worth of a bull. I find this surprising.

Like Weaver, my #1 criteria for a bull is calving ease since about the only assistance I am able to provide at calving time is counting them, usually several days after they are on the ground. So if a bull does not have good calving ease he is not worth much to me at least. How am I going to know this is a likely to be a calving ease bull unless I have good, reliable, EPD data? Especially on young virgin bulls with no calves of their own on the ground yet?

Interesting.

Jim

My question to you, Jim, is HOW are you are going to have "good, reliable, EPD data" on ANY virgin bull, since the accuracy levels are so low on unproven bulls? :tiphat:

George

 

[DOC HARRIS]

SRBeef-

SRBeef Wrote-

A smaller operator can not pay as much for a bull as a larger operator.
To date there have been 23 responses to this topic. Not ONE of them has mentioned EPD's as a measure of determining the worth of a bull. I find this surprising.

You are correct in saying that "not ONE has mentioned EPD's" directly and specifically, however, my post was meant to incorporate the cumulative purposeful objectiveness of WORTH, VALUE, and MATERIAL in decision-making bull-buying protocols. Consideration of EPD's, desirable Phenotype, attention to Functional Traits, and the intelligent utilization of acquired knowledge of PROFITABLE Beef Production are all incorporated in the measure of determining the WORTH, VALUE and MATERIAL aspects of bull purchasing AND selling. It is a total package. Anything less would be considered "Single Trait Selection!"

Just one final comment: In My Opinion - Funnel Butt Bulls (Phenotypically and Genotypically) are WORTH-less, and should be avoided, for both Maternal AND Terminal breeders!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm22]

Sure , If he had 250 head and paid 25,000$ for a bull, collected semen and AI them, 10 years in a role .I am sure he could come out ahead....and improve his herd...

Going out and finding the best bull for your program in the entire country and then using him AI (where he could be siring calves for 25++ years) may be the fastest way to make genetic progress.....though I suspect that there really isn't a hair's worth of difference between a $25,000 bull and BRG's $9000 one.

 

[blackcowz]

Wow, thanks for all the information on this. There has been a wide range of discussion on this topic now, and I think I have enough opinions and facts to look through and utilize. So, maybe I undersold my bull, but he's out there now, and people will know what I sold. Thanks for the debate, it was fun to read!