Aight i'll go ahead and take a pounding.i would put off lime right now i would skip straight to Dap. at 400lbs an acre dap will raise the ph faster than lime. dap melts as fast as ammonia nitrate. yea dap cost more per ton than lime but it will take more lime than dap to raise the ph so in the end result you'll save money then when ph is getting close to balanced you could start using lime. i use crisome clover i love it. i love its color. if you keep it happy with ph it'll help keep your grass happy with nitrates.
What to spray with?
- Thread starter A&Mfarms
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If you are talking about the Ranch Cop I sure hope Macon lets him keep posting his stuff. I find it interesting reading about stuff that I and many others don't know much about and could be of much benefit to lots of the readers on these boards.Angus Guy":1yqdk6x6 said:
Well he may take some advice from reading this. It is an ad for Watsons, but maybe it could be a little more subtle. I for one enjoy and am getting some benefit from is post'sAngus Guy":2kr1ywxd said:
I like to have the Watson's info there to click on when I see something that I want to study instead of have to look it up.
MrBilly
Well-known member
Go Watson's. I think we are all old enough, and wise enough, to make our own decisions on how we spend our money and time, but hearing about organics is refreshing for me!
Billy
Billy
A&Mfarms
Well-known member
Thanks for all the input. I'm not sure what Dap is though, and I also like to here about the organic options.
Ranchcop
Well-known member
I get the message, can I at least put my http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com on my posts??? Opps there I go again. 
Hay, are we not all trying to make a living here?
Ok, to answer a few organic questions….
Lime, I don't have a problem with lime and yes I believe you could still use lime in an organic program, but why??? I have many customers that had soil PH from the low 4s to the high 8s and they all went to 6 go 7 PH within a few years. The life in the soil will take care of itself as long as you stop with the chemicals, and take care of the life in the soil as you would your livestock.
Here is what I have found during some of my studies the past 12 years.
Each spoonful of mellow soil contains billions of living microscopic organisms. Multiply this by the number of spoonfuls of soil in an acre and you have figures that are astronomical. In fact, the living bacteria alone in an acre of soil of average fertility would weight as much as a medium size cow. This seething mass of microorganisms constitutes a crop of three to five tons per acre foot of soil that the farmer sustains beneath the soil surface, in addition to the crop that he grows above the ground. If the crop of microorganisms beneath the surface does not have adequate food, the crop above the ground will suffer from competition for mineral nutrients and be more susceptible to disease.
"Micro-organisms eat the first table. They are in contact with almost every particle of soil. Plant roots are not. Without micro-organic life, soil, the dynamic perpetual system that sustains terrestrial life, would become an inert mass incapable of providing food. Micro-organisms decompose organic material and release elements and organic food for repeated use," states Dr. T.M. McCalla, research microbiologists, University of Nebraska.
Microorganisms need three things: air, water and an energy source starting with the organic matter. John Box, Extension agronomist, Texas A & M, has written, "Mike," the microbe is your best friend and may be the most important livestock you produce. Microbes live in the surface layers of soil in fantastic numbers. Since we cannot see them, we often neglect them, Mike and his cousins can perform chemical miracles that man has not yet learned to duplicate. Treat him well and give him the raw material with which to work, and he will keep your soils in top production."
In addition to food supply you can help by preventing soil compaction. Compaction reduces air supplies, limiting the ability of microbes to perform. Compaction has an adverse effect on root development and the soil's ability to absorb and hold water.
Without active soil micro-organisms, man would long ago have been covered up by his own waste or would have had to find a way of putting his refuse on the moon or elsewhere; but, thanks to Mike and cousins, these waster materials are recycled and made into compounds that can be reused over and over
Thanks for listening,
Brad
Hay, are we not all trying to make a living here? Ok, to answer a few organic questions….
Lime, I don't have a problem with lime and yes I believe you could still use lime in an organic program, but why??? I have many customers that had soil PH from the low 4s to the high 8s and they all went to 6 go 7 PH within a few years. The life in the soil will take care of itself as long as you stop with the chemicals, and take care of the life in the soil as you would your livestock.
Here is what I have found during some of my studies the past 12 years.
Each spoonful of mellow soil contains billions of living microscopic organisms. Multiply this by the number of spoonfuls of soil in an acre and you have figures that are astronomical. In fact, the living bacteria alone in an acre of soil of average fertility would weight as much as a medium size cow. This seething mass of microorganisms constitutes a crop of three to five tons per acre foot of soil that the farmer sustains beneath the soil surface, in addition to the crop that he grows above the ground. If the crop of microorganisms beneath the surface does not have adequate food, the crop above the ground will suffer from competition for mineral nutrients and be more susceptible to disease.
"Micro-organisms eat the first table. They are in contact with almost every particle of soil. Plant roots are not. Without micro-organic life, soil, the dynamic perpetual system that sustains terrestrial life, would become an inert mass incapable of providing food. Micro-organisms decompose organic material and release elements and organic food for repeated use," states Dr. T.M. McCalla, research microbiologists, University of Nebraska.
Microorganisms need three things: air, water and an energy source starting with the organic matter. John Box, Extension agronomist, Texas A & M, has written, "Mike," the microbe is your best friend and may be the most important livestock you produce. Microbes live in the surface layers of soil in fantastic numbers. Since we cannot see them, we often neglect them, Mike and his cousins can perform chemical miracles that man has not yet learned to duplicate. Treat him well and give him the raw material with which to work, and he will keep your soils in top production."
In addition to food supply you can help by preventing soil compaction. Compaction reduces air supplies, limiting the ability of microbes to perform. Compaction has an adverse effect on root development and the soil's ability to absorb and hold water.
Without active soil micro-organisms, man would long ago have been covered up by his own waste or would have had to find a way of putting his refuse on the moon or elsewhere; but, thanks to Mike and cousins, these waster materials are recycled and made into compounds that can be reused over and over
Thanks for listening,
Brad
Ranchcop
Well-known member
Yes that is a concern, although if you apply (I wont say the name of my product heredj":36ogjfo7 said:
) Effective Nitrogen Fixing Micro Organisms on top of them then you will not have a build up or run off problem, I have several customers in the poltery ind. and they use E.M. not only on their pastures but in the chicken houses to detox the houses. They have no problem with any build up.Brad
http://www.WatsonRanchOrganic.com
Ranchcop
Well-known member
ok spoil all my fundun":2tsbbk2n said:
Brad
maybe i've been lost. tell me if i;m wrong please. lime is an acid. it raises the ph in th soil. nitrigen{nitrates uses up the ph. so hence nitrogen need ph in order to complete the cycle to fertlizing the soil completes. this chicken scat organic fertilzer has to be composed right. which is made into nitrogen so you'll need ph to complete the cycle right? lime is crushed rock so is it not organic? i could be completely wrong here and if so someone please give me a clue.
as to the orginal post, it has been said and i found it to be true in my few years manging my land that if you keep the soil health in which helps keep the grass health you dont have much problems with weeds. in times when you have to spray you can use a dose of 2-4-d sure it'll hurt the clovers, i try to use the weekest dose i can and i rarely hurt clovers. i dont usely have to spray when clovers are on no way. they have to be growing be for it'll hurt them.i fravorite spray is GLY-4. it kills everything but mixing it up weak like 20ozs in a 25 gal. tank will kill weeds and leave grass alone.
as to the orginal post, it has been said and i found it to be true in my few years manging my land that if you keep the soil health in which helps keep the grass health you dont have much problems with weeds. in times when you have to spray you can use a dose of 2-4-d sure it'll hurt the clovers, i try to use the weekest dose i can and i rarely hurt clovers. i dont usely have to spray when clovers are on no way. they have to be growing be for it'll hurt them.i fravorite spray is GLY-4. it kills everything but mixing it up weak like 20ozs in a 25 gal. tank will kill weeds and leave grass alone.
Ranchcop
Well-known member
Ok you lost me on the whole lime vs. nitrates thing, not sure what you are saying there. As far as chicken manure, 99% of the litter put on in East Texas is not properly composted and added straight onto a field.
Next I never said lime was bad, just not needed in a Organic Program, so why waste the money. The main reason it is needed in a chemical program, in my understanding (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong,) because of the salt in the Chemical Fertilizer mix.
Here is a little known fact……. Did you know that up to 20% of chemical fertilizers spread on ag. Fields today can be made up of TOXIC WASTE! So if you are putting on 20-20-20 that leaves 40% filler and 20% of that total weight can be Toxic Waste. Don't believe me? Check with the EPA, another way for big companies to get rid of there toxic waste on our land. What will that do to your PH?
I am glad to see that you use the least amount of herbicide possible. Did you know that the biggest offenders polluting our water ways is not the Rancher or Farmer or even the Big Companies, It is the neighborhood home owner. I don't have to tell you now days we all probably use the least amount of chemicals needed to do a job just because of cost. But the neighborhood home owner thinks More is better and when looking at say $10.00 for fire ant killer, (and he was just attacked yesterday) he will put on $20.00 worth. Or if he wants a greener yard then George next door he will use twice as much fertilizer than George. Then the sprinklers come on every night because they are on a timer, down the gutter and into the water ways!
I don't mean to come off as some nut ( I know…. Too late!) and say no chemicals ever.
I just don't see the need that the Big Chemical companies make us think that we have to so much, just to put more money in their pockets. There are alternatives that are cheaper, been around longer than chemicals and better for us all.
Brad
Next I never said lime was bad, just not needed in a Organic Program, so why waste the money. The main reason it is needed in a chemical program, in my understanding (and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong,) because of the salt in the Chemical Fertilizer mix.
Here is a little known fact……. Did you know that up to 20% of chemical fertilizers spread on ag. Fields today can be made up of TOXIC WASTE! So if you are putting on 20-20-20 that leaves 40% filler and 20% of that total weight can be Toxic Waste. Don't believe me? Check with the EPA, another way for big companies to get rid of there toxic waste on our land. What will that do to your PH?
I am glad to see that you use the least amount of herbicide possible. Did you know that the biggest offenders polluting our water ways is not the Rancher or Farmer or even the Big Companies, It is the neighborhood home owner. I don't have to tell you now days we all probably use the least amount of chemicals needed to do a job just because of cost. But the neighborhood home owner thinks More is better and when looking at say $10.00 for fire ant killer, (and he was just attacked yesterday) he will put on $20.00 worth. Or if he wants a greener yard then George next door he will use twice as much fertilizer than George. Then the sprinklers come on every night because they are on a timer, down the gutter and into the water ways!
I don't mean to come off as some nut ( I know…. Too late!)
and say no chemicals ever.I just don't see the need that the Big Chemical companies make us think that we have to so much, just to put more money in their pockets. There are alternatives that are cheaper, been around longer than chemicals and better for us all.
Brad
Ranchcop
Well-known member
Ranchcop":34dzdph4 said:
I apologize if I confused anyone.
I didn't say that the N-P-K is made from toxic waste, I said the filler "can be".
Not all fertilizer companies do this, but they can, so why take the chance?
I'm including a blurb from a website that people may want to check out....
"A final reason to use caution when considering synthetic fertilizers is quite alarming. For several decades, another type of "filler" ingredient in some synthetic fertilizers has been the toxic waste from such sources as paper mills, incinerators, electronics plants, and steel mills. According to the California Public Interest Research Group, "40 percent of some 200 fertilizer products sold in California between 1989 and 1995 contained more lead, cadmium and arsenic than state-defined 'hazardous waste.' " Other toxic wastes found in synthetic fertilizers are chromium, dioxin, and mercury. This practice has gone virtually unregulated and none of these ingredients are listed on the fertilizer label. For more information, check out http://www.calpirg.org and http://www.watoxics.org. "
-Monthly Reflections on Life and Organic Gardening
by Stacey (Rosina) Newton
http://www.naturalgardeneraustin.com/in ... icles.html
Brad
Dave
Well-known member
How do you figure that applying your product will stop phosphorous build up? The phosphorous is there in the chicken litter. The plants only use just so much of it. If it is applied at a level higher than the plants can use and is removed from the field it will build up. If it is used by bugs in the soil it is just temporarily tied up and will be released when they die. It either builds up, runsoff, or gets to the level where it will leach.
I always get a kick out of those selling organic products that sell their product by slamming conventional methods.
Dave
I always get a kick out of those selling organic products that sell their product by slamming conventional methods.
Dave
Ranchcop":1xel80uo said:
Ok this is what i'm saying, you can put all the nitrogen you want on a field but with out the right ph that nitrogen doesnt work or the amount that you put on anyway so some goes to waste. look at it like a fire. lime is all natrual. you've got to have the acid for the nitrogen to complete its cycle. so how is spreading chicken manure doing any good if it has'nt been composted. it has to be composed if it worked that way then no cattle farm would need to use fertlizer. hint cow manure is a top selling fertlizer for home gardners these days. but it has to be composed 1st not just scooped out of a field. the manure has to go thru a heat. when you say fillers what are talking about? why would they put a filler in ferlizer?
want a natural way of fertlizering or at least getting nitrogen into the soil? use lime{or dap} get the ph up to 6 or higher plant 20% of your field with clover {white is good}. its a good guessamation that the clover will put about 200 pounds of nitrogen into the soil per acre.
