What to charge my dad

[littletime1]

What should I charge my dad?

Cattle are my dads, 40 head. Duties are as follows:
Checking the cattle twice a week
Checking twice daily during calving season (3 months)
Doctoring sick/weak calves
Weekly feeding of round bales 4 months of the year
Working the cows 3 time year (worming, shots)
Working the calves twice (tagging, banding, shots)
Weaning the calves (bunk feeding daily 45 days)
Minor fence repair (fallen branch, etc.)

headgate and hay on site, only thing vet does is precheck, I give all shots, I live on-site, tractor on site; assume no wear and tear.

If I am vague, it is for a reason as the above list is really my short list, but please give me your honest opinion on what to charge my dad from what I stated ABOVE. I do not keep track of my hours, nor do I want to (assume I work relatively quickly and know what I am doing). Assume 10% of calves need occasionally tube feeding, a few days in barn, etc.

Assume at year end we sell 38 calves for $700 each if you are basing what I should charge based on what the calves go for.

Thanks for everyone's input!

 

[somn]

1 calf.

 

[littletime1]

1 calf.

If you come help me I will give you 2 calves, LOL. Only one calf? There is quite a bit of time involved here. Maybe I should not say it is for my dad as I would happily pay someone $700 to do those duties for the entire year. I do respect your rancher status, but could you hire someone to do all that for $700?

Thanks for your input

 

[Caustic Burno]

Seems to me you are working on what will be yours someday.
Lot of info left out.

 

[CKC1586]

I guess maybe more information would be helpful. If you live on site rent free that has value as well. Is this your only "job"? What does Dad think your labor is worth? If this is not going to be your only means of income I would think an arrangement that didn't deal with money changing hands would work better with family. Is this his place along with all of his equipment? Do you have your own herd and use the facility for your herd?
I kept my cattle at my brothers and my "fee" was a calf per year, this covered room and hay, I bought any grain I wanted fed and paid for my cow's vet fees.

 

[rockridgecattle]

I also think there is more here.
Are you planning to take over the farm one day?
Is it your tractor or his?
Do you use his tractor for your stuff...ie till garden, clean yard
Do you maintain his tractor, change oil, fix major and minor repairs?
Does he have a shop, can you use it for yourself?
Its good to get things in writing between family and non family. If this is working towards you taking over someday you need to really work with a farm transition planner.
I know this website is from canada but google canada Ag webinars. Log in, and watch some past vidoes from John Fast and Elaine Froese. Elaine talks of the emotional aspect of family farm dynamics so does John but there are othe applications from John. There is also a host of people from the business side of things speaking.

Now if you are there helping him out until he retires and you do not want to take over the farm, work out how many hours per month. Sit down and figure what you would work for your dad on paper. Go to him and chat about it after you put the hours together and see what he thinks is fair. See if you can live with that or a counter offer.

good luck

 

[littletime1]

To answer a few questions:
I own the tractor
half the acreage is mine
I am gainfully employed
I have no intention of inheriting this cattle operation and it is not a concern. I have siblings and it is not my first choice to run cattle on the combined land although I do not mind.
He has no facilities on his acreage that I benefit from (shop/barn)
He is financially stable, as am I, but we both realize my time is worth something and that I should be compensated accordingly (my wife is hammering me with all the time I spend, ok?). I am doing all the work of a caretaker without owning any cows nor do I want to own any at this time. My decision to do the work was he LOVES cows, primarily to avoid having another party run 1/2 their cattle on both our acreages who take 1/2 my pops profit, and be on our land unannounced, and tear stuff up (previous experience with this).

I realize the family factor has an effect on this, but neither of us want it to, hence the reason for this post. Maybe I will have to trick y'all and repost it somehow without saying it is for my dad. LOL

Thanks for all the input

 

[sparky1]

I would prefer a percentage deal with family that way if u do your part well u profit well if you dont spend much time and the cattle operation looses ground then the profits go down for both of u. I just really think u should talk 2 your dad about the time spent since u dont care that much about the profit side of it. sometimes family deals r the hardest to work. I take it your wife does not like the farm life as well as u do and i understand the pressure of this and your wife really should be getting the most of your time but hopefully she understands. Good luck

 

[littletime1]

Now if you are there helping him out until he retires and you do not want to take over the farm, work out how many hours per month. Sit down and figure what you would work for your dad on paper. Go to him and chat about it after you put the hours together and see what he thinks is fair. See if you can live with that or a counter offer.

good luck

I wanted to avoid figuring hours as the way I do things, I spend more time than actually needed as I am a bit of a perfectionist (just my nature) and it wouldn't be fair and it seems I can spend 2 hours doing an hours worth of work. Thats why I said assume I work relatively quickly as to try and reflect what a third party might do (get in/get out). Yeah, perfectionist I said, but the last thing I want to do is try to estimate hours or keep track of them. I was hoping everyone could just take a look at the duties I listed and quote an idea what they would charge or expect to pay. Forget I am related to the old guy, LOL.

 

[Howdyjabo]

I have seen it done around here on halves.

Half the profit- after expenses.
That means you will have to keep records.

Or just set a "half" target you both can live with.

 

[littletime1]

I would prefer a percentage deal with family that way if u do your part well u profit well if you dont spend much time and the cattle operation looses ground then the profits go down for both of u. I just really think u should talk 2 your dad about the time spent since u dont care that much about the profit side of it. sometimes family deals r the hardest to work. I take it your wife does not like the farm life as well as u do and i understand the pressure of this and your wife really should be getting the most of your time but hopefully she understands. Good luck

Thanks Sparky1,
You got the wife part nailed. I do like the performance aspect of the percentage deal. How about throwing out a percentage you would charge someone? Forget he is family though if you can. I might catch some heck for that, but that is what we both feel is fair. I tried to be as conservative in my duties list as possible, but if I took the early comment of 1 calf for 38 raised, that is only 2.6% and that isn't even inflation.

 

[Jogeephus]

I'd think 25% of the net sales profit. Less room and board. Less insurance. Less other expenditures spent on you. Of course, looking at it this way you might end up owing him money. To simply things, 1 calf sounds about fair to me if you are getting all these other perks thrown into the deal.

 

[littletime1]

I'd think 25% of the net sales profit. Less room and board. Less insurance. Less other expenditures spent on you. Of course, looking at it this way you might end up owing him money. To simply things, 1 calf sounds about fair to me if you are getting all these other perks thrown into the deal.

UPDATE:
No real perks
I added that there is no room and board (I own half the land and the tractor), he doesn't want to insure anything, and there are no other expenditures on me in particular.

 

[rockridgecattle]

i meant no disrespect, alot of us here have been through the family thing in one way or another. We just wanted to make sure we had all the facts.

Your tractor feeds i assume, as well as does other work around the farm
you share the land which feeds his cows

so here was a deal we had with the local neighbor. He owned the cows and the land. He was too old to work anymore but still wanted the animals
We hayed his land for him (our cows benifited) we fenced his land, we had the bull for his cows, we vaccinated at our expense, housed his animals on our home quarter for the winter, we paid the simple drugs for minor sickenesses, we did all the calving
He paid for bought feed like grain
He paid for major drug expenses.
calf crop was 50/50
When we bought his land he got 40 we got 60% of the calf crop.
your tractor,part of your land i would go on a percentage of net sales.
does he own where you live or do you pay the taxes where youlive and own the house?
If he does nothing and you own where you live, 25% of net sales. Work from there.
a 65 hp tractor with loader not front wheel assist or 4 wheel drive is worth about 15-18 dollars an hour. I charge 18.
up here to hire someone it's between 8 and 10 an hour for farm labor.
I know you do not want to soak your dad and you are a perfectionist. My husband is not a perfectionist but he beleives in not going so fast as to wear out machinery or make costly mistakes.
In fairness to your wife you need to figure out what it's worth. Your time and tractor expense (not cheap) then you need to figure out the house you live in if he owns it, fair to your dad.
That is net cost to your dad in paying you. Then once you have that you can work out a %. working it out this way, to figure a % is fair to your wife, you, and your father.

 

[Jogeephus]

I'd think 25% of the net sales profit. Less room and board. Less insurance. Less other expenditures spent on you. Of course, looking at it this way you might end up owing him money. To simply things, 1 calf sounds about fair to me if you are getting all these other perks thrown into the deal.

UPDATE:
No real perks
I added that there is no room and board (I own half the land and the tractor), he doesn't want to insure anything, and there are no other expenditures on me in particular.

50% of net then. That's the normal arrangement around here for the few who still practice share cropping.

 

[somn]

1 calf.

If you come help me I will give you 2 calves, LOL. Only one calf? There is quite a bit of time involved here. Maybe I should not say it is for my dad as I would happily pay someone $700 to do those duties for the entire year. I do respect your rancher status, but could you hire someone to do all that for $700?

Thanks for your input

Do you have children of your own?
If not someday when you do you will understand everything your mother and father sacrificed to get you to where you are today. If you do have children and you are not thankfull for everything your parents have done for you I feel sorry for your parents. The little bit you are doing for your dad will never compare to what he has already done for you. Maybe I'm all wrong but I became a father 6 years ago after doing so I show my father and mother a lot more respect. Seems 1 calf with a potential value of $1500.00 would be overpayment.

 

[rkm]

If you want to do it, do it for nothing. If you don't want to do it, find another way to get it done. You can't charge you dad if you really want to do it. My kids help me all the time and never expect a dime. Were family.

 

[Jogeephus]

If any of my children were interested enough to buy half the land from me, buy half my tractors and take care of everything where all I had to do was pick up a check, I'd be happy to give him half the profits. His time is worth something and so is mine. Now if my wife died, and we had it set up where the children would receive "her half" of the farm for estate planning purposes, this would be different altogether if he was wanting 1/2 of the profits. He'd probably find out later that I left "my half" to the NAACP. Also, if he was still living under my roof and I was feeding him, that would be a different story all together as well. I think we sometimes don't reward our children enough for their efforts on the farm. Giving them incentives will keep them around. I'd rather have any of my children around the place rather than a few dollars in my pocket.

I don't think we have enough facts to figure this one out an unfortunately I haven't learned not to answer something without requesting all the info. And yeah, I'm a slow learner.

 

[Howdyjabo]

I can see this from both points of view- Family obligations vs paid help.

But two things stick out here
1-wifes not on board with him spending his FREE time on the farm(if money changing hands makes his life at home easier its well worth it)
2- he said his parents were financially solvent.

If they BOTH want to work out a paying deal- I see no moral problem with it.
I expect my kids living at home to help on the farm- but when they grow up they have their own life and I only want them to help when they would enjoy it.
As adults If I EXPECT help- I expect to make it worth their time and effort.
If times were tough and I had no money - that would be a different story.Then family takes care of family for no financial rewards.

 

[Wewild]

Seems to me you are working on what will be yours someday.

He took care of me when I couldn't for myself. All he's got will be mine one day.

I work for free.