What else can I do?

[Z&J Cattle]

I have a 500# heifer in the group that I bought last week that I am terribly concerned about. She has had a snotty nose for the last 5 days. She has had 2 rounds of LA200 (Saturday and Monday) and yesterday I gave her a round of Nuflor that I got from a friend. Today she is still snotty (although the snot is now clear as opposed to the yellow that it was earlier in the week) and she seems to be slobbering some. Her breathing rate is elevated some I would say, but not too much. She has started acting very lethargic today and is not interested in eating much, lays around a lot when others are feeding, etc.... Am I doing all I can do or is there more? Do I give her another round of Nuflor tomorrow? I am afraid of losing her, but if that does happen, I want to know that I have done EVERYTHING possible to try to save her. Any advice greatly appreciated.

 

[angus9259]

Nuflor's as strong as it gets but doing EVERYTHING you can do involves bringing in the vet.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Give her a round of Micotil,

 

[milkmaid]

Yes, you do give her another round of Nuflor tomorrow, and consult with your vet as well.

I prefer to err on the side of caution and treat one more time than I think I need to -- otherwise you're running the chance of it coming back.

 

[rockridgecattle]

Talk to your vet, he/she can offer better advice. There are other stronger drugs, or you need to treat longer...10-14 days with nuflor. If nuflor does not work there is draxin and excede.
As well, you could add in an anti inflam (non steriod)to help ease the fever and allow the antibiotic to do the job it needs to do.

 

[Z&J Cattle]

Thanks for the advice all. The problem with the vet thing is that we are "veterinarilly challenged" in my area. There are not a great deal of cattle in my area and there are no, and I mean NO large animal vets in my immediate area at all. The nearest ones are 70-80 miles from here and getting them to go outside their "circle" is next to impossible, and definitely not affordable. They are in "cattle couuntry", wheras I am not particularly. They have all the business that they need without leaving home. So, I am more or less on my own as far as that is concerned. I will re-treat with Nuflor again tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks again everyone.

 

[angie1]

As well, you could add in an anti inflam (non steriod)to help ease the fever and allow the antibiotic to do the job it needs to do.

I would do this for sure.
I would also use the micotil.

 

[IluvABbeef]

I have a 500# heifer in the group that I bought last week that I am terribly concerned about. She has had a snotty nose for the last 5 days. She has had 2 rounds of LA200 (Saturday and Monday) and yesterday I gave her a round of Nuflor that I got from a friend. Today she is still snotty (although the snot is now clear as opposed to the yellow that it was earlier in the week) and she seems to be slobbering some. Her breathing rate is elevated some I would say, but not too much. She has started acting very lethargic today and is not interested in eating much, lays around a lot when others are feeding, etc.... Am I doing all I can do or is there more? Do I give her another round of Nuflor tomorrow? I am afraid of losing her, but if that does happen, I want to know that I have done EVERYTHING possible to try to save her. Any advice greatly appreciated.

This sounds like exactly the same symptoms that happened to a steer we once had that we lost. Nuflor and dexamethasome we tried, and we also ended up having to tub him with some glucose-based oral medication to give him some strength and energy to help him fight his illness. I can't remember whatelse Dad pumped him with, but I think he injected LA200 too. We had tubed him according to what it says on the jug that that glucose-based medication said, but failed to keep going with it when he showed signs of getting better, like the jug said. The steer had a relapse, we repeated the treatments, but we lost him all because we should've kept tubing him the first time he came down with his sickness after he was over his sickness, even if we had to hog-tie him done, so to speak.

So from this, I have this advice: take her temp and record once a day, give her Nuflor and LA200, and start getting some glucose...no GLYCERIN Phosphate (I think that's what the oral drench was...it's been over a year since then or so) and tube her according to directions on the jug. Don't stop tubing her once she starts showing signs of getting better, you gotta keep going for a few more days after she's made a full recovery (from visual judgements). DO NOT use Micotil because this med is not nearly as a broad-spectrum drug for respiratory illnesses as Nuflor or some more expensive drugs used for respiratory. Chances are that there will be no response if you inject Micotil because this would be the wrong drug for the wrong "bug".

Good luck with her.

Edit (yet again): We had to tube him because he wouldn't eat, he was drinking maybe a little just after we'd tub him, but that was only to wash down the stuff we gave him. The Dex we tried to use to reduce inflammatory, but, if I remember correctly, we didn't use the dex at all, just Nuflor and the glycerin....and I think LA200 too...it's been a looong time since that happened so my memory's a little foggy, forgive me if I got the details mixed up.

 

[larryshoat]

The use of a thermometer is a valuble tool when evaluating the effectiveness of treatment .If I don't have real improvement in 24 hours I start to question the treatment . Tommorrow morning if her temp is over 102.5 I would switch antibiotic or add something like triple sulfa or penicillin ( these can be bought OTC)to the Nuflor . As was suggested an anti-inflamatory would help .

Larry

 

[angie1]

Don't mess with LA200 at all. I would advise against tubing as well ~ it creates further stress on an animal already stressed, especially the rodeo it would take to tube a 500 lb calf. If it is eating and drinking on its own, don't tube it. You can add electrolytes to the water if you feel it needs more. I would highly suggest (again) using an anti-inflammatory; that, if nothing else, will pick this animal up ~ but it must be used in conjunction with an antibiotic. If what you are using does not work (such as nuflor (go round 2 with it)), try something else (such as micotil).

I hit submit, and see Larrys post.
What is her temp?

 

[rockridgecattle]

even though the Large animal vet is a long way off, you need to cultivate a professional relation ship with him/her. If you are buying animals, you will need drugs, you will need services. 70-80 miles is a pain but in the long run the gains will far our weigh in the way of treatment advice, vaccine advice and the purchase of drugs.
If your vet is that far away, you might want to think to have a few things on hand for when a calf goes down.
Our vet has also sent us home with the glycerin treatment. The idea is to get the stomach working again, restoring the PH (been so long since i used it.) We have tubed with it and put it in the cow's water to drink free choice.
Next, you might want to consider the cost of the treatments and if it is worth it. This calf might just be a PI calf that will always show signs of sickness when stressed. If it is a PI calf you also need to consider the cross contamination to the other calves who are understress from shipping and what not.
If it is a PI calf, the calf will shed the viruses when it is sick and when it is healthy. If it is PI viruses can not be treated, it has to run it's course, and you then treat to prevent secondary infections like pnemonia, shipping fever, scours etc. You can get the calf tested for BVD and IBR which are the cause of a PI (persistantly infected) calf. I think for BVD you need a small chunck of the ear for a test.
A good vaccination program from the sellers would be a good idea especially if you have no vet to speak of.
Also, remember, when the doctor gives you anti biotics, it's for 7-14 days depending on the severity of the illness. So, one or two shots just will not cut it. If you do not get all the bacteria, you will have a relapse, and a chronic lunger will develope.
Finally, if you have cows to calve, make sure they are no where near these bought calves. If there is a PI one in the bunch, you will spread the disease to the unborn calf if the cow has not been vaccinated with ML FP vaccines. Cross contamination can occur from any hole in the calf's body. This includes the crapper, the mouth, the nose, the eyes. So that means no shared food, no shared water and separate sick pen...a must for a feed lot operator...which is what you are if you are buying feeders to raise...even if it is just one.
Good luck and keep us posted on the progress

 

[IluvABbeef]

Don't mess with LA200 at all. I would advise against tubing as well ~ it creates further stress on an animal already stressed, especially the rodeo it would take to tube a 500 lb calf. If it is eating and drinking on its own, don't tube it. You can add electrolytes to the water if you feel it needs more. I would highly suggest (again) using an anti-inflammatory; that, if nothing else, will pick this animal up ~ but it must be used in conjunction with an antibiotic. If what you are using does not work (such as nuflor (go round 2 with it)), try something else (such as micotil).

I hit submit, and see Larrys post.
What is her temp?

Why Micotil? We tried using Micotil on our steers with BRD and half the animals wouldn't even get better with the stuff. Maybe a few, but not the whole group. Nuflor hits the stuff that Micotil can't.

Copied and pasted from http://www.drugs.com/vet/nuflor-can.html :

Nuflor Indications
Cattle
NUFLOR Injectable Solution is indicated for the treatment of bovine respiratory disease complex, also called shipping fever, associated with Mannheimia haemolytica, Pasteurella multocida and Haemophilus somnus. NUFLOR Injectable Solution is also indicated for the treatment of bovine interdigital phlegmon (foot rot, interdigital necrobacillosis, infectious pododermatitis) associated with Fusobacterium necrophorum and Bacteroides melaninogenicus and for the treatment of infectious bovine keratoconjunctivitis (IBK, Pinkeye) caused by Moraxella bovis.

Copy and Pasted from: http://www.drugs.com/vet/micotil-300-injection.html

Micotil 300 Injection Indications
Micotil® 300 is indicated for the treatment of bovine respiratory disease (BRD) and ovine respiratory disease (ORD) associated with Mannheimia (Pasteurella) haemolytica. Micotil® 300 is indicated for the control of respiratory disease in cattle at high risk of developing BRD associated with Mannheimia (Pasteurella) haemolytica.

So if Nuflor won't work, nor will Micotil so why bother going with Micotil if Nuflor won't work? Anti-inflammatory will just relieve the pain to the animal, nothing more.( http://www.drugs.com/vet/dexamethasone-2-mg-injection.html ) That heifer needs to be tubed if she's not eating enough to sustain herself, like rockridge said, so she can continue to live and fight this illness she's having.

 

[milkmaid]

If Nuflor is working, stick with it. If it's not, try something else. It's that simple. Micotil, Baytril, Draxxin, even LA200 or Penn can work if you're using the right antibiotic for the "bug".

I usually give an antibiotic about 24-48 hours to work before deciding whether to switch or stick with what I started with.

 

[angie1]

Why Micotil?

So if Nuflor won't work, nor will Micotil so why bother going with Micotil if Nuflor won't work? Anti-inflammatory will just relieve the pain to the animal, nothing more.( http://www.drugs.com/vet/dexamethasone-2-mg-injection.html ) That heifer needs to be tubed if she's not eating enough to sustain herself, like rockridge said, so she can continue to live and fight this illness she's having.

My step up drug from Nuflor is Micotil on vet recommendation. As both MM and I suggested, use the Nuflor twice, if it doesn't work, try the micotil (or Baytril, I have not used Baytril much so I presonally don't feel comfortable recommending it). I think using the LA200 in this situation is like trying to pound a nail with a flyswatter.

As far as the anti-inflammatory, it has to be used in conjunction with an antibiotic. If you have an infection, you feel tired, wore down, don't want to eat, lay around, sore etc.... So you take an ibuprofin. It does not cure what ails you, but it allows you enough relief that you feel good enough to get up, eat something etc... these things facilitate healing ~ the anti-inflammatory just allows you to feel well enough to do what you need to feel better. See? It is the same with the cattle.

 

[hillsdown]

I haven't used micotil in 12 years, it was over used by people and eventually lost its effectivness.

Try nuflor again and increase the recommended dose by 10 - 15 percent,,do this IM only, also a steroidal anti inflammatory is best for the lungs in this case and the recommended drug is Predef NOT banamine and not dex..

Good luck and even though you cannot get a vet out to see you , you can still develop a relationship in person and continue it into phone calls, also the meds you need when you are up the river are only available from a vet.

 

[IluvABbeef]

As far as the anti-inflammatory, it has to be used in conjunction with an antibiotic. If you have an infection, you feel tired, wore down, don't want to eat, lay around, sore etc.... So you take an ibuprofin. It does not cure what ails you, but it allows you enough relief that you feel good enough to get up, eat something etc... these things facilitate healing ~ the anti-inflammatory just allows you to feel well enough to do what you need to feel better. See? It is the same with the cattle.

Yep. Still sticking with my opinion on Nuflor though.

 

[Bez+]

Thanks for the advice all. The problem with the vet thing is that we are "veterinarilly challenged" in my area. There are not a great deal of cattle in my area and there are no, and I mean NO large animal vets in my immediate area at all. The nearest ones are 70-80 miles from here and getting them to go outside their "circle" is next to impossible, and definitely not affordable. They are in "cattle couuntry", wheras I am not particularly. They have all the business that they need without leaving home. So, I am more or less on my own as far as that is concerned. I will re-treat with Nuflor again tomorrow and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks again everyone.

I wish I had one that close.

You want to get good "big animal service" I suggest you do not look at the odometer again - in the end - sooner or later - it will cost you lost animals.

You got live stock, you will have dead stock.

Pay the call out fee - or pay to haul. I know it is a pain in the wallet. Or lose an animal - which is worth more to you?

Tough choices.

Love reading all the drug advice here - remember some of them are dangerous to humans - if you are a newbie you need to know an accidental stick in the hand could put you down permanent.

Be safe

Bez+

 

[Z&J Cattle]

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. Now, for an update on the calf. We gave her 5ml of Penicillin yesterday IM as per label directions. I cannot find an anti inflammatory anywhere around here. The "supply" stores around here are all a joke at best. Anyway, I do believe that she is more alert to her surroundings and more nimble in her movements today. She is up and around more (still not eating much at all though) and her nose is not really snotty anymore. BUT, she still has the slobbers worse than ever. Where to go next?

Thanks again

 

[milkmaid]

If you're using Penn you need to use at least 5mL/100lbs -- cover the label up and forget about it. Any decent vet worth their salt will tell you that.

You should really quit swapping antibiotics though. If Nuflor is working, stick with it. No sense in randomly switching drugs and it causes more problems than anything.

 

[rockridgecattle]

agree with MM- quit switching antibiotics!
The anti inflam is vet prescribed only...you need to go to the vet and get the right stuff or the calf is not going to make it or the calf will be a poor doer.