What do you think. . .? How does. . .??

[novatech]

A lot of onformation is flowing so I will throw in my two cents...We have a problem in the beef industry, namely land grant schools and the show ring and the packers themselves...They choose to push the flavor of the year bulls....its always changing and the worst part is we are getting seedstock bulls that look like steers....as for the meat industry they are always pushing for marbling, but heaven forbid if the yeild grades go up.....Most of the problems that we have in beef taste and tenderness could be solved with aging.....Some of us remember when all meat was aged....even meat that you got at the local grocery or grocery chain stores and guess what, very seldom did you have a bad eating experiance..The meat industry has us chasing our tails trying to raise the type of cattle they say they want to buy.......I just wish for once that we as ranchers and farmers would hold back our product for a period of time to screw up their markets and futures....Then maybe.. just maybe... we could get a decent price for our product. :hide: :hide: let it fly boys, I am sure this should stir some of you up

I find nothing there to argue with. As far as holding back. Nice dream but you and I and everyone else here knows it will never happen.

For what it's worth most of the premium meat programs are aging meat. However it is primarily Wet AGE. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact I prefer it to Classic dry age methods which impart an off flavor as far as I am concerned. Be advised When I say dry age I do not mean hang the carcass whole for 21 days. True dry ging is a whole different deal.

My company(Sysco Foods) has premium programs that specify no LESS than 21 days on the middle meats, and a few other cuts.

Having dealt with eared cattle for a long time I have always insisted on hanging for 21 days. It does make a difference.

 

[houstoncutter]

Not everyone can afford a well aged, well marbled prime steak....sooo...we try to feed the masses. Let's not restrict them to hamburger. What you may turn your nose up at may be delicious to them. ;-)[/quote



When we used to have mulitiple packers....Can anyone say anti-trust violations?....we had aged beef for the masses.. I can only remember back to the early 1960's, but all beef was aged...The problem started when we started selling it in the box.....if your old enough you will remember how the packers said that this process would be a game changer for the better!!!!!!

 

[houstoncutter]

A lot of onformation is flowing so I will throw in my two cents...We have a problem in the beef industry, namely land grant schools and the show ring and the packers themselves...They choose to push the flavor of the year bulls....its always changing and the worst part is we are getting seedstock bulls that look like steers....as for the meat industry they are always pushing for marbling, but heaven forbid if the yeild grades go up.....Most of the problems that we have in beef taste and tenderness could be solved with aging.....Some of us remember when all meat was aged....even meat that you got at the local grocery or grocery chain stores and guess what, very seldom did you have a bad eating experiance..The meat industry has us chasing our tails trying to raise the type of cattle they say they want to buy.......I just wish for once that we as ranchers and farmers would hold back our product for a period of time to screw up their markets and futures....Then maybe.. just maybe... we could get a decent price for our product. :hide: :hide: let it fly boys, I am sure this should stir some of you up

I find nothing there to argue with. As far as holding back. Nice dream but you and I and everyone else here knows it will never happen.

For what it's worth most of the premium meat programs are aging meat. However it is primarily Wet AGE. There is nothing wrong with that. In fact I prefer it to Classic dry age methods which impart an off flavor as far as I am concerned. Be advised When I say dry age I do not mean hang the carcass whole for 21 days. True dry ging is a whole different deal.

My company(Sysco Foods) has premium programs that specify no LESS than 21 days on the middle meats, and a few other cuts.

3way it did happen once, as far as a hold back...I think it was in 94 during a bad drought and packers were hammering the hell out of us here in Texas....Anyway state wide everybody that could hold back did .... Guess what all classes of animals went up 10cents per hundred across the board the following week

 

[Smokey Bull]

As someone earlier in this thread said; I am also relatively new to the "cow bidness", but, spent my first 17 years growing up in it...then we got absolutely crushed in the "crash of '73-'74...went to leasing the place after that. Then I heard the "calling" again, and here I am. AND, of course, I have my nickel's worth of opinion.

When I selected my bull, I went to a breeder that was 1 generation removed from the original breed foundation herd. This operation has stayed remarkably consistent in how they breed and raise their animals for 2 generations. I just wanted consistency of conformation, temperment, and yield. AND, I got lucky. I bought one that many considered a "hind-tit" runt. All he has done, so far, is give me "little boxcars on legs". In my operation, overhead and ROI make the bottom line. I only buy 4-6 year old cows, medium framed, and only by private treaty so that I know their history. They tend to cost less than the "pretty girls" yet give me consistent 1000+ pounders at 12-16 months. They also have high carcass yields and since I get paid on the rail or by direct sales...they are profitable. All of my girls have a dollar on dollar 16 month ROI...I realize luck has a lot to do with it, but so does not buying bulls every year or so or the dice roll of AI.

I'm not trying to toot my own horn, just taking a long way to say that you can be profitable (sometimes more so) with the $1.00 per pounders versus chasing the premiums by sticking to low overhead, consistent production.

 

[SRBeef]

I love the "boxcars on legs" description!

Jim

 

[Victoria]

Doc,
I do consider all you mentioned however, I have come on here and asked what people thing of such and such a bull. It is not to base my entire bull semen buying decision on but to get additional information. I have gotten some good information from fellow board members including comments regarding foot issues and disposition. Asking about a bull on the boards can be part of doing the homework. When I want to use a bull I want to use EVERY tool available to me to ensure that I am improving my herd.

 

[KNERSIE]

Doc,

Thank you for the kind words. As still a relative newcomer to cattle (compared to many of you on this board) I am constantly amazed at how long it takes to see or evaluate the results of breeding decisions in cattle. Another reason to have a well thought-out breeding plan.

One business-oriented comment: it is much easier to sell your customers what they want to buy rather than maybe what they should buy. If you are in part of the cattle business where your customers want to see the "bull of the month" in the pedigree of the calves they are buying then maybe there is some logic to supplying what they want.

The danger to that approach is that the bull of the month may change or your customers may suddenly realize that the bull they thought they wanted doesn't have the attributes their herd really needs....

jmho. Jim

That is an easy problem to solve....

Go about your breeding program as you see fit and breed the type of cow you know that work for you and AI 20 or so cows with the bull of the month, that way you'll have the heifers to retain that you know will work, you have the same type of bulls to sell for those buyers who has walked the road with you and you can offer heifers and bulls out of the hot sire for sale to those who want that.

 

[mncowboy]

Many producers, even seedstock producers aren;t looking to "Improve the entire breed", they are working with what they have and trying to improve THEIR herd.

:clap: :clap: :clap: Nicely put :clap: :clap:

 

[novatech]

I realize luck has a lot to do with it, but so does not buying bulls every year or so or the dice roll of AI.

quote]
So why do you and others think AI is a dice roll when so many others are successful with it. I have found that by doing my homework and not buying the bull of the month semen that is has led to herd improvement. Enough improvement to retain a home bred bull. Sure you make a bad choice occasionally but is is not a choice that effects the entire herd like buying an unproven bull could. There are commercial cattlemen using AI successfully for producing terminal calves (increasing yield and grade).To me luck is ending up with a bull that will do this for you. When owning your own bulls you also have to consider his use. Is he going to be used for terminal or to produce replacements. The one that does both optimally is rare.
I have been self employed for my entire working life. There is one thing I can positively tell you. When you do not know how to do something you hire it done. I did my cattle the same way. When I did know squat about EPD's I found someone that did and got their advice. When I selected heifers I got rid of the barn blindness buy getting the opinions of experts. Even when I thought I knew I would use others to verify my opinion. I have always found that by asking for the opinion of others I was showing them respect and that made them eager to help.
I am willing to bet that most of the good bulls that end up in cattlemen's herds got there through the use of AI and EPD's somewhere along the line.

 

[3waycross]

I realize luck has a lot to do with it, but so does not buying bulls every year or so or the dice roll of AI.

quote]
So why do you and others think AI is a dice roll when so many others are successful with it. I have found that by doing my homework and not buying the bull of the month semen that is has led to herd improvement. Enough improvement to retain a home bred bull. Sure you make a bad choice occasionally but is is not a choice that effects the entire herd like buying an unproven bull could. There are commercial cattlemen using AI successfully for producing terminal calves (increasing yield and grade).To me luck is ending up with a bull that will do this for you. When owning your own bulls you also have to consider his use. Is he going to be used for terminal or to produce replacements. The one that does both optimally is rare.
I have been self employed for my entire working life. There is one thing I can positively tell you. When you do not know how to do something you hire it done. I did my cattle the same way. When I did know squat about EPD's I found someone that did and got their advice. When I selected heifers I got rid of the barn blindness buy getting the opinions of experts. Even when I thought I knew I would use others to verify my opinion. I have always found that by asking for the opinion of others I was showing them respect and that made them eager to help.
I am willing to bet that most of the good bulls that end up in cattlemen's herds got there through the use of AI and EPD's somewhere along the line.

Good post. Nothing wrong with the rational well thought out approach. :tiphat:

 

[Smokey Bull]

Novatech...My apologies(!), did not mean to be disrespectful, in any way, about AI or even to those buying bulls. What I should have said was, "This is what I am comfortable with and how I choose to run my operation"...your points are well taken.

Again, "My Apologies".

 

[upfrombottom]

Maybe I am looking at the opposite side of the mirror - DOC HARRIS

Its always amazing how different the picture is looking from the outside in. Everybody has to start from somewhere, and it appears to me that if they have enough concern to get on here and ask questions, they just might actually be trying to learn a little of what some of us think they were born with.

I'm with Dun on this one. I don't think there is a single person that has come of these boards and asked a question, that does not have improving his or her own herd on their mind. Economics plays a big roll in most everyone's decisions. Even if it is the brother in law's cousin's bull.

 

[HOSS]

I sort of have a hodge podge approach to my cattle genetics selection if viewed from the outside looking in but when looked at from the inside it makes sense. I use both my own bull and A.I. to try and reach my goals. I have an end goal of functional cattle that will grade well (for the terminal ones), be phenotypically correct and have a uniform appearance even though they are from different sires. I usually A.I. my heifers so calving ease is of most importance for them. I can't sell or use a dead calf. I try to pick a low BW bull that will compliment and correct the short comings of the heifer while at the same time keeping my overall goal in mind. Easier said than done. I have started to A.I. my top 10 mature cows to a bull that has the potential to produce off-spring that gets me closer to my goal. These gals are A.I.'d with both retaining heifers or creating above average steers so I use a decent performing, balanced trait, high quality bull for them. My owned bull is put on the rest. I buy the best bull that I can afford (read "makes sense") which is about $2,500 to $3,000. He is also balanced in EPD's with my overall goal in mind. I have retained heifers from my live bulls if they expressed those traits well. In a given season like this year I have calves from 4 sires. Three A.I. sires and my live bull. Two of the AI sires were low BW and were used on heifers. One of those heifers was 1/2 Jersey so I chose a bull that would moderate her milk production and straighten the legs of her calves. The others were bred to another low BW bull that would add hindquarter and length. The top 10 cows were bred to a bull with a little more performance as well as decent maternal traits. The balance of the herd were bred by live cover. The sires were all Balancers or full blood Gelbvieh.

In a nutshell I look at genetic selection for individual cows first and then for the herd as a whole with my end goal in mind. I have asked about several bulls on here before as part of my research. A.I. bulls in a catalog look great and could have great numbers but I want to know about disposition, longevity etc. that the catalogs do not show but experience does. I don't have a big operation so I can logistically do this. A guy with a 100 head or more might have a harder time picking sires to fit each cow or heifer.

 

[novatech]

Novatech...My apologies(!), did not mean to be disrespectful, in any way, about AI or even to those buying bulls. What I should have said was, "This is what I am comfortable with and how I choose to run my operation"...your points are well taken.

Again, "My Apologies".

You owe me no apology. You are as entitled to your opinion as much as I am. I take criticism as well as give it. I think that is what the boards are all about. Differences of opinion open ones mind to think. Some people get highly offended when others disagree. They call it arguing. Others would call it a debate. When one makes a statement that I disagree with it simply opens a door that allows me to voice my opinion. It is never intended to be a personal attack. Although the way I write may make it seem so at times. So if you felt that I was making a personal attack then it would be me that should apologize.
By the way, don't think you are the only one guilty of writing something that came out complete different than what you intended , I get the award for that.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I'm the same way. I don't have a good "nack" for being subtle. I come across harsh, but don't necessarily mean it that way. Just kinda blunt, no flowery words.

 

[Smokey Bull]

Novatech...My apologies(!), did not mean to be disrespectful, in any way, about AI or even to those buying bulls. What I should have said was, "This is what I am comfortable with and how I choose to run my operation"...your points are well taken.

Again, "My Apologies".

You owe me no apology. You are as entitled to your opinion as much as I am. I take criticism as well as give it. I think that is what the boards are all about. Differences of opinion open ones mind to think. Some people get highly offended when others disagree. They call it arguing. Others would call it a debate. When one makes a statement that I disagree with it simply opens a door that allows me to voice my opinion. It is never intended to be a personal attack. Although the way I write may make it seem so at times. So if you felt that I was making a personal attack then it would be me that should apologize.
By the way, don't think you are the only one guilty of writing something that came out complete different than what you intended , I get the award for that.

I totally understand, I just reread my post and realized I sounded harsh about accepted methodologies and thought I could have worded things better. I have a passion for what I am doing (as does everyone else on here) and get carried away at times.

The ONE THING about these debates/arguments...I never fail to learn something from them. The discovery of this board has made a HUGE and positive impact on my operations in the short time I have been a member. AND as someone mentioned, everyone on here is pulling in the same direction and the advice is priceless.

 

[goddy]

I asked the "what do you think of such and such a bull" recently and the way I see it is that after you have done your homework, looked very closely at the numbers and accuracies, researched pedigrees then I'd like the opinion of someone who had used the bull.

This is such a huge country that it isn't feasable, at least for me , to jump in my pick up and tour around looking at progeny of a bull I might be thinking of using. If my neighbor had used the bull I'd talk to him about his experience with said bull so It seems like the internet and forums like this one have just given us a wider selection of neighbors.

To assume that people asking for advice use it as their only source of information and that they will base their breeding decisions solely on what someones second cousin said tells me the person making the assumption is somewhat arrogant and possibly a bit of a know all!

Goddy

 

[Lon]

I asked the "what do you think of such and such a bull" recently and the way I see it is that after you have done your homework, looked very closely at the numbers and accuracies, researched pedigrees then I'd like the opinion of someone who had used the bull.

This is such a huge country that it isn't feasable, at least for me , to jump in my pick up and tour around looking at progeny of a bull I might be thinking of using. If my neighbor had used the bull I'd talk to him about his experience with said bull so It seems like the internet and forums like this one have just given us a wider selection of neighbors.

To assume that people asking for advice use it as their only source of information and that they will base their breeding decisions solely on what someones second cousin said tells me the person making the assumption is somewhat arrogant and possibly a bit of a know all!

Goddy

always thought that was why poeple were asking myself.

 

[goddy]

To assume that people asking for advice use it as their only source of information and that they will base their breeding decisions solely on what someones second cousin said tells me the person making the assumption is somewhat arrogant and possibly a bit of a kn

I should not have said arrogant and know all but certainly a bit condescending.

 

[RD-Sam]

I'm still hoping for a definition of improvement

Dun, I couldn't speak for Doc, but improvement to me is reaching my goals. All of the question asking and research on AI sires and lines has paid off for me for the most part, the calves are getting closer to my goal each year. :cowboy: