What do you think. . .? How does. . .??

[DOC HARRIS]

I have spent a big part of this afternoon perusing the various threads on the Forum, and I am a little surprised at some of the questions being asked here. :? During the last seven years that I have been participating on these discussions it has been mentioned and stressed that the selecting of bulls (and cows also) is as critical a decision for the future of his herd as a breeder can make. And yet . . . I have read comments such as "Whatr do you think of so-and-so bull?" "What experiences and results have you had with such-and-such bull?" or - things like - I heard from a guy down the road that his neighbor's cousin had a friend who used so-&-so bull - - and liked him!" :shock:

General information questions:
I am wondering if any of you 'breeders' consider your own cow's Phenotype, Genotype, and Functional Traits when selecting sires? Do you ever take into consideration the Frame Scores or Size of your own cows prior to selecting a sire? Do you ever balance at least five progeny difference traits of your cows with those same traits of the potential bull that you are considering using before making a definite choice? Do you ever determine what performance ratios may result by using Bull A on your cow herd? Have you ever thought that a particular Yearling Weight result of Bull and Dam might be TOO high? Are you usually seeking and using "Cow Freshener" bulls - and hoping for the resulting calves to be "Donors"?

Just wondering.

DOC HARRIS

 

[Brandonm22]

Doc, I think we are being inundated with too many bulls. This is a good thing, BUT it means that unless you are on the road on the sale circuit there are a lot of bulls who are being promoted as the next big great thing that you have never seen twelve progeny from. People see the ads, hear the talk, and kind of want to see what the scuttlebutt is all about.

 

[I luv herfrds]

Doc I admit I was a trend follower, but after a couple bad experiences I look at our own cattle and try to get bulls that will improve our herd.
I see numerous bull sellers out there promoting these bloodlines and just shake my head wondering where the Hereford breed will be in a number of years.
Will the same problems as before come back? very likely.

I'm looking at frame size in our herd. not fun trying to look over the back of one cow and not be able to see anything. Tryng for a more uniform size instead of the going from 4-6 size.

 

[user1]

It been said many times, the bull of the month club isn't where it's at. You can see some guys picks and they have bulls from both ends of the spectrum, but some cousins brother in laws mothers nephew recommended the bull. No one knows my cows like I do.

 

[dun]

I don;t see it as any great deal that sone one is looking for information on a bull. I haven;t layed eyes on the offspring of some of the nulls I've used until they are born here. It's good to have some other input from someone that has actually seen them before deciding to use the bull. A statement that the clave lack depth, good structure, etc. is just one more piece to be used in determining if a bull fits for the producers particular needs.
And sometimes poeple are just curious!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Maybe I am looking at the opposite side of the mirror - - but it strikes me from reading these first few posts that you are all misunderstanding my entire viewpoint! I am not condemning the use of, or the investigating of, or the perusal of BULLS, - ANY or ALL bulls! I AM questioning whether anybody really knows or understands the causal justification of utilizing all of the techniques and knowledge that has been compiled throughout the many years of effort and work by so many people in attempting to improve the SCIENCE of breeding seedstock Beef Cattle! It is an Art and a Science, and it will NEVER reach the point of perfection with any person. Just looking and inquiring about specific animals is NOT the answer to achieviang success. It entails a lifetime of deep, serious, and extensive thought, planning and investigation of many facets of selection processes before Bull "A" greets Cow "C"! :wave:

. . . Not just by "looking" at any particular bull (OR cow), but by delving into their complete, total, and unadulterated qualities which, combined in total, and mated to females (OR bulls) which are eligible, qualified and worthy to be considered improvers over the average of the breed do we stand a better than average chance of being PROFITABLE in a very tough BU$INE$$ !

Some 'hint' that Billy Bob across the County maybe -might have a bull that is 'purty good' aint gonna' get the job done! It takes knowledge and dedicated work to achieve success.

I hope that ya'll don't misunderstand me! :bang: :bang:

DOC HARRIS

 

[SRBeef]

I think I know more about my own bulls (and their dams) than bulls from outside my herd. Using a scale, frequent weigh-ins and Cattlemax, I may keep fairly good records for a commercial herd.

So I have decided to go with a 2 bull approach to address the needs of my small herd. I plan on using a retained bull out of my best cow with the smaller frame and mature size but quick growth on my commercial unrelated females and a good bull from Jerry Huth on my registered females and any females related to my retained bull.

This combination of good outside registered genetics and known internal genetics should get my herd to the 1200 lb, 4-5 frame size cow and steers that can hit 1100 lb and "finish" on grazing corn at 13-14 months I am looking for in a few years. I hope.

I can't and don't AI so I am not even tempted by the bull-of-the-month club. I also want a very tight, close to one cycle calving period and my bulls have so far been pretty good heat detectors.

An interesting question. So yes, I am retaining bulls who meet my goals to spread the known characteristics further thru my herd. And purchasing bulls that Jerry recommends knowing my goals.

Here are a couple pictures of the two bulls I will be using this summer, My number 22 and Huth U070. They seem to be good buddies rooming together in a pasture this winter. I gave them a couple pounds of treat/training grain the other day after the sub-zero cold and wind.

Any comments suggestions on using a combination of retained and purchased bulls as a partial solution to Doc's question about using a bull that addresses the herd's needs? I feel 22 is a very known quantity on both the upper and lower sides of his internal pedigree. 22 has very good growth and I want to spread his dam's genes through the herd. U070 also looks like he will move the herd in the size/conformation direction I want with outside genetics. I think his name should be "Torpedo"!

Note Bull 22, born 3/21/10 is not quite 11 months old in the photo.

Jim

 

[dun]

Many producers, even seedstock producers aren;t looking to "Improve the entire breed", they are working with what they have and trying to improve THEIR herd.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Many producers, even seedstock producers aren;t looking to "Improve the entire breed", they are working with what they have and trying to improve THEIR herd.

Dun-

With all due respect, I didn't say "improve the entire breed". I said they should be improvers over the average of the breed!

DOC HARRIS

 

[dun]

Many producers, even seedstock producers aren;t looking to "Improve the entire breed", they are working with what they have and trying to improve THEIR herd.

Dun-

With all due respect, I didn't say "improve the entire breed". I said they should be improvers over the average of the breed!

DOC HARRIS

Doesn;t the average encompass the entire breed? Since you've got the answers, define improve!

 

[DOC HARRIS]

SRBeef-

You are approaching the business end of the problem exactly the way I am suggesting! By knowing your own cattle, inside and out, you are "Balancing" the positives with the negatives, and "melding" or merging the various traits with what you are given with the two bulls! Excellent thinking! Given time (a few generations of 'combination' cross-breeding within the herd) "Captained" by the genetics of your two bulls, you will have a "Genetic Recipe" that will provide you with a Balanced Breeding Formula for your exact target of traits and characteristics! By employing accurate selection and cullling strategies, and 'tweaking' undesirable results (which WILL occur), you can control the direction of your "Profit-Makers" in both your commercial and Purebred phases of your herd.

THAT is precisely why I introduced this subject into the discussion group of the Forum!! Jim is "Planning his Work, and Working his Plan" in the long-term thinking Protocol of Beef Production! Hooray and congratulations to you!

This kind of thinking exemplifies my contention that a successful beef breeder will NOT utilize SINGLE TRAIT SELECTION measures when selecting seedstock! "Balancing" desired traits and characteristics is the answer to obtaining scheduled results!

I am proud of you, Jim!

DOC HARRIS

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Many producers, even seedstock producers aren;t looking to "Improve the entire breed", they are working with what they have and trying to improve THEIR herd.

Dun-

With all due respect, I didn't say "improve the entire breed". I said they should be improvers over the average of the breed!

DOC HARRIS

Doesn;t the average encompass the entire breed? Since you've got the answers, define improve!

Dun-

I guess you are right :tiphat: If you improve (elevate to a higher quality or condition) the average, you automatically improve the breed.

DOC HARRIS

 

[LFF]

Maybe I am looking at the opposite side of the mirror - - but it strikes me from reading these first few posts that you are all misunderstanding my entire viewpoint! I am not condemning the use of, or the investigating of, or the perusal of BULLS, - ANY or ALL bulls! I AM questioning whether anybody really knows or understands the causal justification of utilizing all of the techniques and knowledge that has been compiled throughout the many years of effort and work by so many people in attempting to improve the SCIENCE of breeding seedstock Beef Cattle! It is an Art and a Science, and it will NEVER reach the point of perfection with any person. Just looking and inquiring about specific animals is NOT the answer to achieviang success. It entails a lifetime of deep, serious, and extensive thought, planning and investigation of many facets of selection processes before Bull "A" greets Cow "C"! :wave:

. . . Not just by "looking" at any particular bull (OR cow), but by delving into their complete, total, and unadulterated qualities which, combined in total, and mated to females (OR bulls) which are eligible, qualified and worthy to be considered improvers over the average of the breed do we stand a better than average chance of being PROFITABLE in a very tough BU$INE$$ !

Some 'hint' that Billy Bob across the County maybe -might have a bull that is 'purty good' aint gonna' get the job done! It takes knowledge and dedicated work to achieve success.

I hope that ya'll don't misunderstand me! :bang: :bang:

DOC HARRIS

Doc may be I'm missing the question to.
Here's what I do to determine possible bull candiates (AI or natural)

1) Spend hours studing pedigrees and any production records that I can get my hands on. This includes my cow herd and prospective bulls.

2) Determine what I'd like to improve within my own herd and see if the bull should move the calves in the direction that I want to go.
Often the direction that I've chose is different from many others.

3) Visibily appraise the bull and his offspring if available, if it is a young bull with no offspring I have to place emphasis on siblings and his parrents looks and preformance. I know that you can not depend upon a estimated average epd from the parents to be accurate.

4) Study the make up of the bulls origination to see if they are the type of cows that you want the bull to be like.

5) Go visit the herd if possible.

6) Don't buy based on looks at a show.

7) Don't buy at a sale based on visual appraisal alone.

8) Get to know the breeder, if you don't trust their credibility then don't buy.

9) Here say is OK to take in , just add a large amount of salt to the value.

These are some of the things I use, however if you don't measure and keep accurate records it make it almost impossible to know where your herd is at. Carcass traits, reproduction statis, and actual weight weaned per cow weight are almost, if not, impossible to determine without measuring.

With saying all that I sometimes will take a chance on a bull. Recently a purchased a bull from a breeder that knew little about. The bull was too young to have yearling weight and carcass data on, he was also a ET calf so weaning and birth weight data is unreliable. So why did I buy him?

I took a chance...
I studied his sire and sires daughters production, his dams production (what little there was), and the ancestory on the pedigrees.
The breeder retained a bull from the dam and uses him in his herd as well as offers semen for AI.
I studied the retained bulls records.
I placed emphasis on the breeders desire to retain a semen interest.
I looked at a vidieo and while others did not see what I saw, it helped me to decide upon a price level and if I wanted to purchase the bull.

Am I happy with my decision on this bull?
Currently YES.
I've learned more about the breeders reputation and his herd.
The breeder wants to preform yearling weights and ultrasound measurements.
He is going to have the bull collected and per his words use him AI on some of his best cows.

The ultimate determination was, can I take the chance?

 

[novatech]

It seems to me that the questions asked are based on the knowledge, experience/or lack of, confidence, and skill of the person asking the question.
There are also those that want a second opinion even though they think they are right on there selection.
Regardless of the reason why, the fact is that by asking the question would make one assume that they at least had a desire for improvement.

 

[Douglas]

The thing that gets me is that there is so much information out there and a lot of it is marketing hype. I am getting older and learning and remembering is not so easy anymore. One day i can have a plan, then read new research and begin questioning myself. It just easier sometimes to say the Bull looks good to me let's go with it. Now if i were a larger operation and still was unsure of myself, i would look to hire an expert for help.

 

[BRG]

Here has been and will be our breeding program. We research pedigrees and cows/cowlines quite hard. A bull we use must come out of a top cow and cow family. Not just for production, but also depth of rib, length of body, sound feet and legs, and a good level udder. These are very important to us. Our customers sell alot of replacement heifers and these girls must be raised out of good, easy keeping sound cows, and that all begins with us. Then the bulls we use out of these good cows, must be high above the others in terms of quality. They must be higher performers, heavier muscled, deep sided, long bodied, and have good feet. I like to see them with a good carcass scan, and average or better EPDs across the board.

We have been flushing our top few cow lines at our ranch, and keeping or AI'ing to herdsires out of them. I feel that I know my cows better than other cows around the breed, so we use ours pretty hard. Last year we used 7 bulls out of our program and 4 bulls out of someone elses that we either AI'd to or used in the pasture. They are all very similar in type, which in turns makes a more uniform calf crop. I am adding a couple bulls to our battery this year out of our herd and then I need to buy 1 or 2 more as well. I have done alot of research so far for the bulls we are looking to buy. I haven't found the one yet. I do have my eye on a couple though. I found a couple that really looked good on paper, but then I went and looked at them, and they were very good bulls, but so far they have not been the one, as I didn't like something about something either with him or his dam, so now I move to the next one. I am picky, but I think you need to be to get to the next level, and so our customers calves get the demend they need to earn a buck.

To me cow families and cow type are very important, but we also have to have the performance that gets it done. We feed out alot of our customers calves and they have to to the right kind to work at a profit with these high grain prices. Most of our customers breed Red Angus to Red Angus, so they need to have a little extra go from their herdsires, and so far the above has been working.

 

[Northern Rancher]

Is there many places running a structured crossbreeding program-not just as to breeds used but as to uniformity of the bull battery. Uniformity of type and pedigree-sons of X Angus bull bred to daughters of Y Horned Hereford bull for example. The ranches that do that have very consistant and uniform commercial cattle as much or more so than alot of purebred outfits.

 

[Brandonm22]

If a commercial herd was put together by the same person and he/she has been selecting the sires for that herd for 20+++ years to be uniform and has not yo yo-ed between breeds and types along the way......and is not at the stockyard buying cheap heifers or 3 n 1s, that herd really ought to be more uniform than a registered herd. The registered herd has to have some level of variety to give their buyers choices. That commercial herd can be selling calves that are 7/8s sibs. A seedstock herd that tries that is likely to lose buyers because they don't have the popular ai bull of the month.

 

[farmwriter]

With all due respect, maybe instead of starting a thread that many of the people asking these questions won't understand or perhaps even bother to read, you could make some constructive comments to their thread, like, "If your current herd lacks/needs to improve a, b, and/or c, this bull might be a good fit for you." Assuming you really want them to learn.
Sometimes I get tired of explaining that horns don't mean bulls (not on here of course, but I think you can understand the parallel), and that's just from my limited knowledge. I'm sure someone of your age and experience sees even more people (probably myself included) as ill-informed Philistines. If people are asking the questions however, that's a step in the right direction, no matter how far behind the curve they might be starting.

 

[Northern Rancher]

You might lose some sales by not using the flavor of the month but you might gain some also.