Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
Doc did you and 3way get a good enough explanation from Houstoncutter. Can't see you having a problem 3way unless you missed the part where he was gonna use Gelbvieh to make the F1's.
Red Bull Breeder":1rglkkok said:Doc did you and 3way get a good enough explanation from Houstoncutter. Can't see you having a problem 3way unless you missed the part where he was gonna use Gelbvieh to make the F1's.
DOC HARRIS":3p3pwsyn said:[Doc perhaps I am not on the same page as you, but if you will read the above quote . It says" For a terminal cross" and so on so forth. To me Doc that means all calves are terminal, heifers and bulls alike. Yes I am after a single trait selection and it is muscle, because I will be using F-1's mommas that may be lacking somewhat in muscle, but not in hustle....and yes your are correct I am out of the business right now....and darn glad I am, for I fear we are on the brink of total devestation of the cattle herd here in Texas. When people start praying for a hurricane in April...you know its bad.]
HC-
Houston, to quote a well-known phrase - "Houston, we have a problem"! Yes, you are right, we are not on the same page, and it is not because I disagree with you on your selection protocol! I do concur with you regarding muscle mass, and 'muscularity' in our beef seedstock, particularly relating to Terminal traits.
In the teaching I have done in the past, and in working with breeders of Terminal stock, I have stressed the critical importance of concentrating on Multiple Trait Selections for a BALANCE of traits - not just ONE TRAIT ONLY! Strangely, that phase of conceptualization in seedstock selection protocols seems to be one of the most difficult for breeders to grasp when actually viewing the animal(s) in question. They seem to drift into a state of enhanced 'witchery', and the only factor that presents itself to their mind is the ONE trait that is uppermost in their priorities. I fully understand that feeling. It has happened to me on more occasions than I care to remember. But - in order to maintain the necessary BALANCE in the delicate procedures of seedstock selection, more than ONE trait must be considered. You have already done that by your own admission in the post above with your F1 mommas, and that is your seeking "HUSTLE"! Wonderful! Muscle and hustle! THAT is at least two traits together that you have already considered. How about adding WW, YW (but not too much), Carcass weight, and Marbling to the mix? Now we are up to (7) Seven (7) traits for a terrific TERMINAL balance! But the trick is to achieve these characteristics without LOSING other important traits, such as 'feed utilization', Feedlot Value, and Yield Grade, to name a few more.
I hope I have been able to anchor you on MY page without misleading you in my efforts. It follows along the same mental pathways that cause a person to be "Barn Blind", and not see the problems in their own herd. It is a tough road to follow at times!
DOC HARRIS
Me too! :clap:Red Bull Breeder":edm98xa7 said:Lon thats the way i read what Houston wrote.
houstoncutter":xruxrzmu said:I have read this thread with great interest. Reason being, if I get back in the cattle biz Longhorns may be a part of the herd. I would have to raise my own heifers as I would never find what I was looking for otherwise. With that in mind i think I would use a Gelbvieh bull on Longhorn cows. You would retain and even add to the mothering ability also Gelbvieh are a very docile breed. Most longhorns that i have dealt with are docile as well. You should also increase your meat quality with this cross. In short you should have a 1000 lb cow that can and will live off the land .
I understand that this makes no sense in other parts of the country were the grazing conditions are not so tough. We are discounted in the south for our cattle. Rightly or wrongly, it just happens. We dont take a discount on our cattle in the early spring when weaned calves are in short supply. Otherwise cattle buyers consider cattle from the south to have to have ear or longhorn breeding somewhere in their blood lines. So I say give them what they are paying for.
For a terminal cross on the cattle I have considered using Limousin. Most likely because I have had a lot of experiance with them, mostly good, some bad. The modern Limi bull does not have the muscle mass that I seek anymore, so I have been looking at the Belgian Blues.
As our drought here in Texas is pointing out, we are going to have to relearn some old livestock skills. The main one being how to raise animal with little or no hay and no supplements. We have less cattle than we did in the 50's or 60's, but we still are raising the same poundage of finished beef. Some of this weight is due to genetic changes but I dare say, most of this weight gain is due to the increased use of man made products. It is the increased costs of these supplements that is putting many cattlemen in the red. Our fathers and grandfathers managed to raise beef without all the supplements here in the deep south. So we better get busy talking to them ,if your lucky enough to have them around. Have a blessed Easter morning
TexasBred":31x9bd4v said:Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.
TexasBred":2tecracv said:Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.
DOC HARRIS":lqtqk16a said:TexasBred":lqtqk16a said:Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.
TexasBred-
That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.
DOC HARRIS
TexasBred":3d16o5q2 said:DOC HARRIS":3d16o5q2 said:TexasBred":3d16o5q2 said:Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.
TexasBred-
That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.
DOC HARRIS
Then dumb it down so even "I" can understand. ;-)
I thought I did that with the S-H-E-E-E-S-H! post. This is enough on this subject. If you don't get what I am saying by now, I can't make it any more plain to you.
DOC HARRIS
houstoncutter":3ad5ix9e said:Come on Doc, fess up, you went all mulitraits on us before you read the post. You ignored that I am taking a Longhorn matted to Gelbvieh bull, for a F1....Goodness it doesnt get much more multitraited than that. Then that F1, bred to something for more muscle....and everything is terminal...If that cross doesnt work you move on to a different breed as a terminal sire. As for "genetically uncertain EPD's in the F1 cross you are correct it is a crap shoot, but its funny how that hybrid vigor has a way of smoothing out your problems
We are not trying to start a new breed, just something that is cheap to start up and will give you a modest return on your money. I leave that breeding the best to the best...to you seedstock folks..I'll stick to breeding a cheap cow that will hustle, to the best bull I can afford