what breed to cross longhorns with for best replacement

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Doc did you and 3way get a good enough explanation from Houstoncutter. Can't see you having a problem 3way unless you missed the part where he was gonna use Gelbvieh to make the F1's.
 
Red Bull Breeder":1rglkkok said:
Doc did you and 3way get a good enough explanation from Houstoncutter. Can't see you having a problem 3way unless you missed the part where he was gonna use Gelbvieh to make the F1's.

He[[ i am so confused I don't even care anymore. I am still amazed that this thread is 13 pages long........
 
[Doc perhaps I am not on the same page as you, but if you will read the above quote . It says" For a terminal cross" and so on so forth. To me Doc that means all calves are terminal, heifers and bulls alike. Yes I am after a single trait selection and it is muscle, because I will be using F-1's mommas that may be lacking somewhat in muscle, but not in hustle....and yes your are correct I am out of the business right now....and darn glad I am, for I fear we are on the brink of total devestation of the cattle herd here in Texas. When people start praying for a hurricane in April...you know its bad.]

HC-

Houston, to quote a well-known phrase - "Houston, we have a problem"! Yes, you are right, we are not on the same page, and it is not because I disagree with you on your selection protocol! I do concur with you regarding muscle mass, and 'muscularity' in our beef seedstock, particularly relating to Terminal traits.

In the teaching I have done in the past, and in working with breeders of Terminal stock, I have stressed the critical importance of concentrating on Multiple Trait Selections for a BALANCE of traits - not just ONE TRAIT ONLY! Strangely, that phase of conceptualization in seedstock selection protocols seems to be one of the most difficult for breeders to grasp when actually viewing the animal(s) in question. They seem to drift into a state of enhanced 'witchery', and the only factor that presents itself to their mind is the ONE trait that is uppermost in their priorities. I fully understand that feeling. It has happened to me on more occasions than I care to remember. But - in order to maintain the necessary BALANCE in the delicate procedures of seedstock selection, more than ONE trait must be considered. You have already done that by your own admission in the post above with your F1 mommas, and that is your seeking "HUSTLE"! Wonderful! Muscle and hustle! THAT is at least two traits together that you have already considered. How about adding WW, YW (but not too much), Carcass weight, and Marbling to the mix? Now we are up to (7) Seven (7) traits for a terrific TERMINAL balance! But the trick is to achieve these characteristics without LOSING other important traits, such as 'feed utilization', Feedlot Value, and Yield Grade, to name a few more.

I hope I have been able to anchor you on MY page without misleading you in my efforts. It follows along the same mental pathways that cause a person to be "Barn Blind", and not see the problems in their own herd. It is a tough road to follow at times!

DOC HARRIS
 
DOC HARRIS":3p3pwsyn said:
[Doc perhaps I am not on the same page as you, but if you will read the above quote . It says" For a terminal cross" and so on so forth. To me Doc that means all calves are terminal, heifers and bulls alike. Yes I am after a single trait selection and it is muscle, because I will be using F-1's mommas that may be lacking somewhat in muscle, but not in hustle....and yes your are correct I am out of the business right now....and darn glad I am, for I fear we are on the brink of total devestation of the cattle herd here in Texas. When people start praying for a hurricane in April...you know its bad.]

HC-

Houston, to quote a well-known phrase - "Houston, we have a problem"! Yes, you are right, we are not on the same page, and it is not because I disagree with you on your selection protocol! I do concur with you regarding muscle mass, and 'muscularity' in our beef seedstock, particularly relating to Terminal traits.

In the teaching I have done in the past, and in working with breeders of Terminal stock, I have stressed the critical importance of concentrating on Multiple Trait Selections for a BALANCE of traits - not just ONE TRAIT ONLY! Strangely, that phase of conceptualization in seedstock selection protocols seems to be one of the most difficult for breeders to grasp when actually viewing the animal(s) in question. They seem to drift into a state of enhanced 'witchery', and the only factor that presents itself to their mind is the ONE trait that is uppermost in their priorities. I fully understand that feeling. It has happened to me on more occasions than I care to remember. But - in order to maintain the necessary BALANCE in the delicate procedures of seedstock selection, more than ONE trait must be considered. You have already done that by your own admission in the post above with your F1 mommas, and that is your seeking "HUSTLE"! Wonderful! Muscle and hustle! THAT is at least two traits together that you have already considered. How about adding WW, YW (but not too much), Carcass weight, and Marbling to the mix? Now we are up to (7) Seven (7) traits for a terrific TERMINAL balance! But the trick is to achieve these characteristics without LOSING other important traits, such as 'feed utilization', Feedlot Value, and Yield Grade, to name a few more.

I hope I have been able to anchor you on MY page without misleading you in my efforts. It follows along the same mental pathways that cause a person to be "Barn Blind", and not see the problems in their own herd. It is a tough road to follow at times!

DOC HARRIS

i guess i am not understanding here now Doc so enlighten me if ya would. but houston says he wants a gel LH f1 cross for cows than will breed them terminal to my understanding wich i could easily agree with cause i have thought about it myself. i guess wouldnt ya work on the traits i outlined from a stnadpoint on the f1 cross. ww and yw carcass and marbling i guess i figure would come from closly studying what bulls you would put on these lh cows to get your F1. ww and yw weight would come from the terminal as well but i figure in the way my mind works that is a givin because heck what could is a terminal if isnt going to give you weight. (not saying that is the only thing they should give but those 2 are a givin.) the other ones i assume you would watch for as well when choosing a terminal cause you would want your buyers to keep wanting your calves.
i guess in my mind when he said what he wanted i figured lh for the hustle as it has been called they will bring to the table. the gel for the added mothering abilities. not to mention they cross would help increase ww yw carcass weight and marbling as well over a lh cow. than from that he would add a terminal bull onto the f1 for putting the lbs on them. but by no means did i figure he meant just for weight. i guess couldnt say about a belgian blue cause i dont know about them but with a char or lim i would assume if picked right would give the feed utilization and feedlot value and yield grade not to mention more ww yw or carcass weight on the calves coming from the f1 cross. so what have i missed here that led to single trait selection? or do you think his idea of a f1 with those breeds bred back char lim or BB wouldnt be a good cross?
Or houston did i misunderstand what you were planning here or was i about spot on?
 
houstoncutter":xruxrzmu said:
I have read this thread with great interest. Reason being, if I get back in the cattle biz Longhorns may be a part of the herd. I would have to raise my own heifers as I would never find what I was looking for otherwise. With that in mind i think I would use a Gelbvieh bull on Longhorn cows. You would retain and even add to the mothering ability also Gelbvieh are a very docile breed. Most longhorns that i have dealt with are docile as well. You should also increase your meat quality with this cross. In short you should have a 1000 lb cow that can and will live off the land .

I understand that this makes no sense in other parts of the country were the grazing conditions are not so tough. We are discounted in the south for our cattle. Rightly or wrongly, it just happens. We dont take a discount on our cattle in the early spring when weaned calves are in short supply. Otherwise cattle buyers consider cattle from the south to have to have ear or longhorn breeding somewhere in their blood lines. So I say give them what they are paying for.

For a terminal cross on the cattle I have considered using Limousin. Most likely because I have had a lot of experiance with them, mostly good, some bad. The modern Limi bull does not have the muscle mass that I seek anymore, so I have been looking at the Belgian Blues.

As our drought here in Texas is pointing out, we are going to have to relearn some old livestock skills. The main one being how to raise animal with little or no hay and no supplements. We have less cattle than we did in the 50's or 60's, but we still are raising the same poundage of finished beef. Some of this weight is due to genetic changes but I dare say, most of this weight gain is due to the increased use of man made products. It is the increased costs of these supplements that is putting many cattlemen in the red. Our fathers and grandfathers managed to raise beef without all the supplements here in the deep south. So we better get busy talking to them ,if your lucky enough to have them around. Have a blessed Easter morning

Doc,
Stop and reread the first paragraph,I am purposing to cross Longhorns with Gelbvieh. That in itself is a mixing of multiple traits, with most of those traits being good. I will concede their may be a problem with spotting color variations.As for ww and yw that is taken into consideration and hence the use of Gelbvieh. That breed will bring more muscle as well as improved meat quality. One problem I may have, is I will have 1000lb cows that milk too much.. Gelbviehs milk quite well the muscle breeds.. I considered Simmentals for this F1 cross. The Simms are great milkers as well as improved meat quality, but their problem of color mixed with Longhorns would probably be a problem. Longhorns that I have dealt with are good milkers. So I am concerned about a hard doing cow in the bare bones operation that I run.

As for the terminal breed to cover these cattle, yes I am looking for one trait WW. If I was going to retain ownership of these cattle through the finishing phase, I would look for a balanced bull. I understand that the cattle industry does not like this type of animal, most likely it will not be as productive as other types of animal that I could send them. The problem is coming from the deep south, we are penalized by the system for having Longhorns and Brahaman in our bloodlines.. I say, lets give em what their paying for... I know it will be a lot cheaper to raise em, and make a higher rate of return on your investment.

As for your comments concerning Terminal breeders, not worry about a balanced bulls. I would have to agree with them...How much those scales push down make your profit. High growth bulls usually have good WW andYW epd's.... If I am breeding terminal bulls, why should I worry about whether the bulls sire or dam has poor milking epds?
 
SHE-E-E-SH!

My friends, I think that this thread has become so convoluted that most of us have gotten 'caught up' in the convergence and are meeting ourselves returning! Let's not make a very simple procedure of intelligent cattle breeding into a muddled and bewildering jumble of over-lapping terms and labels that can become ponderous and confusing to logic and common sense! I think that most of you are 'overthinking' the basic foundation theme here. Take a deep breath, relax and consider this:
1- Animals are composed of multiple genetic factors.
2- Breeding Bull B to Cow C combines those genes and produces Calf X.
3- IF the Sire and Dam of calf X have NOT been selected with "Multiple Trait Selection" protocols and, instead, have been selected with Single Trait Selection genes - ONLY, (Belgian Blue Butts, for example), the resulting progeny just MIGHT develop into a yearling that is nothing more than a giant butt dragging around on toothpick legs and a woebegone expression on its skinny face! Don't want that, do we?
Now - how do we avoid that contingency? By -
4- Employing "Multiple Trait Selection" protocols into our mating plans BEFORE mating Bull B to Cow C!

Whether we are seeking Terminal or Maternal progeny, the selection "PROCESS" follows similar pathways - only the specific traits vary in intensity and in genetic goals. Beef breeds make a significant difference in their genetic make-up in straight purebred goals or in crossing different breeds together - BUT - the Multiple Traits that are inherently located on the chromosomes in the mitochondria determine the resultant calf X progeny! This is just the way it works!

By the way, I have not even mentioned the ubiquitous MILK trait -or - EPD! That is NOT even desirous in a Terminal protocol. It is really simple, isn't it, when you get down to the BASICS? Going back to my original post on this thread, be darned sure that you know what other traits are lurking in your Belgian Blue 'Boy' before arbitrarily mating him to your cows with "genetically uncertain EPD's!"

"Breed The Best To The Best!"

DOC HARRIS
 
Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.
 
TexasBred":31x9bd4v said:
Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.

TexasBred-

That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.

DOC HARRIS
 
TexasBred":2tecracv said:
Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.

:clap: :clap:
 
DOC HARRIS":lqtqk16a said:
TexasBred":lqtqk16a said:
Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.

TexasBred-

That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.

DOC HARRIS

Then dumb it down so even "I" can understand. ;-)
 
TexasBred":3d16o5q2 said:
DOC HARRIS":3d16o5q2 said:
TexasBred":3d16o5q2 said:
Might be a tad easier to understand if you'd dumb it down to layman's everyday language rather than what make it sound like John Kerry trying to convince us in 1000 words or "more" that he did in fact get hit in the ass with a splattering of rice.

TexasBred-

That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.

DOC HARRIS

Then dumb it down so even "I" can understand. ;-)

TexasBred

I thought I did that with the S-H-E-E-E-S-H! post. This is enough on this subject. If you don't get what I am saying by now, I can't make it any more plain to you.

DOC HARRIS
 
TexasBred-

That is why they print Dictionaries! Sorry if I am talking over your head. I certainly don't mean to do that.

DOC HARRIS[/quote]

Then dumb it down so even "I" can understand. ;-)[/quote]

TexasBred

I thought I did that with the S-H-E-E-E-S-H! post. This is enough on this subject. If you don't get what I am saying by now, I can't make it any more plain to you.

DOC HARRIS[/quote].............. i think everybody gets it.. what they aint getting is ""why""
:lol:
 
I thought I did that with the S-H-E-E-E-S-H! post. This is enough on this subject. If you don't get what I am saying by now, I can't make it any more plain to you.

DOC HARRIS

Oh I think you could but seems so often you'd rather pontificate than show us other beggars where you found bread.
 
Come on Doc, fess up, you went all mulitraits on us before you read the post. You ignored that I am taking a Longhorn matted to Gelbvieh bull, for a F1....Goodness it doesnt get much more multitraited than that. Then that F1, bred to something for more muscle....and everything is terminal...If that cross doesnt work you move on to a different breed as a terminal sire. As for "genetically uncertain EPD's in the F1 cross you are correct it is a crap shoot, but its funny how that hybrid vigor has a way of smoothing out your problems

We are not trying to start a new breed, just something that is cheap to start up and will give you a modest return on your money. I leave that breeding the best to the best...to you seedstock folks..I'll stick to breeding a cheap cow that will hustle, to the best bull I can afford
 
Houstoncutter isn't exactly a newcomer to raising cattle. I suspect he already knows what kind of cow will work best in his environment, and if he needs to emphasize some traits over others to make a profit, so be it. Same with the bulls he uses. Everything else is just blowing smoke.
 
houstoncutter":3ad5ix9e said:
Come on Doc, fess up, you went all mulitraits on us before you read the post. You ignored that I am taking a Longhorn matted to Gelbvieh bull, for a F1....Goodness it doesnt get much more multitraited than that. Then that F1, bred to something for more muscle....and everything is terminal...If that cross doesnt work you move on to a different breed as a terminal sire. As for "genetically uncertain EPD's in the F1 cross you are correct it is a crap shoot, but its funny how that hybrid vigor has a way of smoothing out your problems

We are not trying to start a new breed, just something that is cheap to start up and will give you a modest return on your money. I leave that breeding the best to the best...to you seedstock folks..I'll stick to breeding a cheap cow that will hustle, to the best bull I can afford

In short you're not looking for Mr. and Mrs. "Perfect", just those that are perfect in your locale...which would necessarily also be "most profitable". Hels bells Houston, write a book or paper on it. ;-)
 
Houston - I got it on the first go-around. Sounds logical & well planned.
Other than (gotta put a plug in for Simmental) - MOST of the "new modern" Simmies aren't carrying the diluter or spotting gene and have reduced their milk production to a very functional cow. :banana: had to throw that in!
 
Jeanne, you are right. I dont know that much about the Modern Simms. I do know that I like the Simbra cattle though....but as for me putting this idea into pratice I have to have 2 things.....Rain and lots of it and a source of Longhorn heifers raised along the Gulf Coast in a stretch from Beaumont to Matagorda. I can find heifers and cows, but most of them have been babied by breeders looking for color and horn. I do know a few guys that make em hustle, but they want as much, or more than a good F1 Tigerstipe
 
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