Welded pipe H-brace question?

[Brute 23]

I'm not trying to argue or convince and one to do it one way. Just trying to understand. I fully understand there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Here is a fence we built probably 15-20 years ago. It's not perfect but it does its job. Considering that field is so sandy you cant hardly drive across it with out good grass its held up pretty good IMO.

 

[Lisagrantb]

look up racking force in walls or fences. That's it for me, arguing on the inter web is like talking to my dog and I get about the same feedback sometimes

 

[libertygarden]

If it's simple welded H, I would add the diagonal wire to anchor the torque. Otherwise, the whole assembly will eventually move.

 

[callmefence]

...

If it's simple welded H, I would add the diagonal wire to anchor the torque. Otherwise, the whole assembly will eventually move.

Well said....

 

[EasTex]

I'm not trying to argue or convince and one to do it one way. Just trying to understand. I fully understand there is more than one way to skin this cat.

Here is a fence we built probably 15-20 years ago. It's not perfect but it does its job. Considering that field is so sandy you cant hardly drive across it with out good grass its held up pretty good IMO. View attachment 5483

You got a lot of doves with that goat weed?

 

[Brute 23]

You got a lot of doves with that goat weed?

Yes sir. It will rival Argentina in some years. It's in a fly zone so it gets pretty good white wings also. It has some pastures that are blow sand and then it has black ground also. There is quite a bit of farming in the area. It has Hackberry trees, goat weed, and sinny beans(no clue real name) in places.

We have taken groups of 10 and 15 people and limited out the group in less than an hour. We do jackpots and stuff for fastest limit and limit with least amount of shells. The record is 38 min and like 2 shells over the limit.

 

[EasTex]

Yes sir. It will rival Argentina in some years. It's in a fly zone so it gets pretty good white wings also. It has some pastures that are blow sand and then it has black ground also. There is quite a bit of farming in the area. It has Hackberry trees, goat weed, and sinny beans(no clue real name) in places.

We have taken groups of 10 and 15 people and limited out the group in less than an hour. We do jackpots and stuff for fastest limit and limit with least amount of shells. The record is 38 min and like 2 shells over the limit.

I'm envious!!

 

[Stoneridgemb]

I agree that the diagonal wire is the key to the strength of the whole corner. We use wooden treated posts and a treated post as the top part of the brace. I have stopped using multiple strands of wire and twisting them with a pipe or wooden peg. I found that if you ever want to retighten twisted wire it tends to break right away. We just use a single strand of wire from top of one side of brace to bottom of the other. You can tighten it anytime in future with a couple of hammers. If the frost is pushing out your corners it's one thing but if your high ensile is so tight it's banjoing your corners your might want to ease up a bit. power keeps cattle in electric fence not tension.

 

[Brute 23]

It's a must have with wood. It's a totally different deal becaus the horizontal brace is not locked in with a weld. The posts are more likely to move individuallly.

With pipe that whole H should move as one. If your pipes are moving separately you should consider a larger brace pipe. I've seen pipe get out of whack if people use like 2" pipe for that horizontal brace and start pulling the wires tight. That is why you rarely see leaning pipe posts like with wood. The whole H is going to pull out from the end like the picture above.

 

[SmokinM]

The horizontal in the H only keeps the posts parallel as they move. The diagonal keeps them from moving. That is the same in wood or metal.

I am not an engineer but basically the diagonal transfers the load to the point of contact and neutralizes the lever effect by putting the force at the fulcrum or directly to the ground if you are using Fences design.

 

[Lucky]

I always thought on a welded pipe brace a double H or H with a kicker was sufficient as long as the pipe had more in the ground than out. No wire diagonal needed. On wood braces I always do a double H buried at least 4' deep. I used to do the wire diagonal but started doing the wire across the top of the post instead. We always pull from the post furthest from the direction of fence travel. Never had one built like this come up or move. I'm not a professional so only know what works in my area. I do know using a single H or an H with a cross brace that's not twice the height of the fence doesn't work, at least not a fence tight enough for me. I understand what the wire diagonal is doing but don't really think it's need on a good welded pipe brace, definitely wouldn't hurt anything though.

 

[Brute 23]

If you go read on diagnal bracing, it only refers to horizontal (side ways) forces... not lifting the post out of the ground (vertical).

Debth and or an anchoring system is what prevents vertical lift.

 

[SmokinM]

The vertical lift comes from the rotation around the fulcrum of the lever as the brace leans. Depth and more secure anchoring will help simply by balancing the lever.

 

[Lucky]

Fence builders all seem to have their own bags of tricks. The two guys that are probably the best in this area do two different things on braces. One does double H and then welds heavy U bolts to the Last brace post going in direction of fence travel. He ties off to these U bolts. Seems to me this is a bad idea for a couple reasons but his fences look good for years. The other fella builds a H brace with a kicker. On the short kicker post he welds a spade like a T post has on to the post before he drives it. Both fences always stay tight and look good. Nearly everyone that's builds much fence around here drives the post as deep as they can using a single pipe. If I remember right I use a pipe 110" long and do 56" in the ground 54" out. That's the longest I can drive with the skid steer. Friend of mine built a plate to set his T3 at an angle and started driving his kicker post, seems to be working for him. Very little high tensile electric around here so don't know anything about that stuff.

 

[Brute 23]

The vertical lift comes from the rotation around the fulcrum of the lever as the brace leans. Depth and more secure anchoring will help simply by balancing the lever.

So what parts of the H are the lever, fulcrum, and brace in your explanation?

 

[SmokinM]

The posts are the levers, the h just ties the two together. The ground is the fulcrum and wire is the force applied.

The lift occurs because the most strain is on the end post and as the brace leans the h becomes a stiff knee, force is transferred to the bottom of the far post making it the primary fulcrum and then you get lift as the corner post lifts around the stiff knee. Again I am no engineer and I sure a physics genius can give you the technics of it. Thats a pretty simple layman's terms of what happens. A double h will lean but is harder to get lift as force is transferred across 2 points. Pretty much nothing that is designed to take a load at distance from a contact point is built with out a diagonal brace of some type.

 

[BrazosBottomHand]

The "brace wire" is not to keep the horizontal from falling out. The brace pins and the pull of the fence will accomplish that.

Ok I should have said is the wire is to keep the brace tight/held together so it doesn't fold up like a lawn chair when pulled on. The horizontal falling out would be a symptom of the brace not staying tight. If it's welded it will stay tight on its own. IMO if your welded h-braces are jacking up out of the ground, you need a double h-brace. If you put that wire on a single welded h-brace its still going to get jacked up if it was going to before. I figured concrete or driving the posts was a given in all this but maybe not. Can anyone find a picture of a welded (well) and concreted or driven double h-brace that has failed? Ive never seen it but Im not Johnny Cash.

 

[callmefence]

Ok I should have said is the wire is to keep the brace tight/held together so it doesn't fold up like a lawn chair when pulled on. The horizontal falling out would be a symptom of the brace not staying tight. If it's welded it will stay tight on its own. IMO if your welded h-braces are jacking up out of the ground, you need a double h-brace. If you put that wire on a single welded h-brace its still going to get jacked up if it was going to before. I figured concrete or driving the posts was a given in all this but maybe not. Can anyone find a picture of a welded (well) and concreted or driven double h-brace that has failed? Ive never seen it but Im not Johnny Cash.

I would agree with you except I would add a welded diagonal brace. The original topic was does a diagonal wire make it stronger, and it does.
And if you've never seen a welded H brace fail.. cement or driven maybe you should identify with Ronnie Millsap instead of Johnny cash...lol

 

[BrazosBottomHand]

I would agree with you except I would add a welded diagonal brace. The original topic was does a diagonal wire make it stronger, and it does.
And if you've never seen a welded H brace fail.. cement or driven maybe you should identify with Ronnie Millsap instead of Johnny cash...lol

I said welded double h-brace though

 

[callmefence]

I said welded double h-brace though

So did I.