Virginia Tech

[Workinonit Farm]

We need to tighten up our ability to have these folks insitutionalized. Several profs, roomates, etc recognized this guy as disturbed, but no one could do anything

Exactly...yet everyone is so afraid of privacy issues and lawsuits. AND, everyone is concerned...who's gonna foot the bill!

Alice

Besides the privacy and fear of lawsuit issues, "authorities" need "proof" that the "alleged" individual is behaving in a manner which could possibly lead to the individual causing harm. AND acquiring such "proof" can be incredibly difficult due to 'privacy' issues, semantics as in what constitutes 'odd' behavior to some may not be considered odd to another. AS WELL as the average concerned citizen is, as the authorites may put it, not an "expert" in the field of psychology etc. etc. and therefore not 'qualified' to make such a judgement. AND often times when someone like this (the percieved potentially dangerous person) is confronted/questioned about their acts, words, actions etc. they can give some pretty remarkable answers that tend to lead to speculation. These disturbed individuals may commit stupid acts, however, they are not stupid people. They know exactly what they can get away with and exactly how to do it.

Katherine

 

[VanC]

Just a thought, folks, but do you really think that the threat of public excecutions, armed profs or students, or any type of punishment would deter someone who plans to kill as many as possible and then turn the gun on themselves?

I'm not sure the THREAT of others being armed would stop a nut case like the guy at Virginia Tech, but someone armed could stop him before he killed so many.

 

[backhoeboogie]

You people are talking like they picked these places because they were gun free, They picked these places because they were the places the people they blamed occupied. Everybody wants to right these shooters off as stuoid, that is a huge mistake and if you really wanted to help prevent thing like this you wouldn't say aomething so stupid. Everyone saying the cowardly approach isn't looking at this in a realistic way. Is it cowardly to step out of the way when a car is driving at you? It is just a stupid thing to say.

I respect your right to feel as you feel and to express your opinion, but I disagree. Each and everyone of us face conflict daily. Most of us choose to be accountable and don't blame others for our shortcomings. We resolve our conflicts in our own ways.

The man who sacraficed his life to save others, was not a coward, he was a hero through and through. He is worthy of my admiration. He blocked entry into the room such that kids could escape and paid for it with his life. He did not turn and run. He stepped up in utmost bravery and sacrafice. This country needs more men like that.

 

[auctionboy]

You people are talking like they picked these places because they were gun free, They picked these places because they were the places the people they blamed occupied. Everybody wants to right these shooters off as stuoid, that is a huge mistake and if you really wanted to help prevent thing like this you wouldn't say aomething so stupid. Everyone saying the cowardly approach isn't looking at this in a realistic way. Is it cowardly to step out of the way when a car is driving at you? It is just a stupid thing to say.

I respect your right to feel as you feel and to express your opinion, but I disagree. Each and everyone of us face conflict daily. Most of us choose to be accountable and don't blame others for our shortcomings. We resolve our conflicts in our own ways.

The man who sacraficed his life to save others, was not a coward, he was a hero through and through. He is worthy of my admiration. He blocked entry into the room such that kids could escape and paid for it with his life. He did not turn and run. He stepped up in utmost bravery and sacrafice. This country needs more men like that.

I didn't say that guy was a coward I said that taking your own life when you are going to prison and execution was not cowardly, but smart.

 

[Alice]

You people are talking like they picked these places because they were gun free, They picked these places because they were the places the people they blamed occupied. Everybody wants to right these shooters off as stuoid, that is a huge mistake and if you really wanted to help prevent thing like this you wouldn't say aomething so stupid. Everyone saying the cowardly approach isn't looking at this in a realistic way. Is it cowardly to step out of the way when a car is driving at you? It is just a stupid thing to say.

I respect your right to feel as you feel and to express your opinion, but I disagree. Each and everyone of us face conflict daily. Most of us choose to be accountable and don't blame others for our shortcomings. We resolve our conflicts in our own ways.

The man who sacraficed his life to save others, was not a coward, he was a hero through and through. He is worthy of my admiration. He blocked entry into the room such that kids could escape and paid for it with his life. He did not turn and run. He stepped up in utmost bravery and sacrafice. This country needs more men like that.

Absolutely. My prayers have gone to his family.

Alice

 

[Wewild]

I am so sick of hearing everybodies ideas on how this can be stopped. In a nation of 300,000,000 people we will have crazy people do things like this again and again forever. No guns, or more guns wont fix the problem. Shame on anyone that has tried to push there politics and use this tragedy.

We can stop it by doing a better job of protecting our kids from peer abuse.

Everyone knows it happens and no one does anything about it.

This is a tragedy that happens ever day. It may be that just one has snapped this bad. What about all the others? What kinda damage do they cause over their life time?

 

[Alice]

I am so sick of hearing everybodies ideas on how this can be stopped. In a nation of 300,000,000 people we will have crazy people do things like this again and again forever. No guns, or more guns wont fix the problem. Shame on anyone that has tried to push there politics and use this tragedy.

We can stop it by doing a better job of protecting our kids from peer abuse.

Everyone knows it happens and no one does anything about it.

This is a tragedy that happens ever day. It may be that just one has snapped this bad. What about all the others? What kinda damage do they cause over their life time?

agreed, Wewild...

Alice

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Years ago I worked as a Psychologist in an Illinois Psychiatric Hospital and later in an outpatient mental health center in Kansas. I evaluated and "attempted" therapy with a large variety of patients over a number of years. In the late 60's and early 70's there was a mass thrust to "deinstitutionalize" patients and turn them out into the community in group homes, shelter care facilities, and other places. Many ended up on the streets as "homeless" because they dropped out of the mental health system for various reasons, including failing to take their needed medications. Some of these individuals were full-blown schizophrenics as well as certifiable sociopaths and paranoid personalities...

That said...

In our experiences in those facilities, patients ranged from those with "strange" behaviors (not bonafide current law enforcement criteria for taking action) to those clinically deviant (insane if you want to call it that). Many full-blown schizophrenics (highly delusional thought processes, including paranoia), paranoid personalities (paranoid "ideation" but not "fully delusional"), sociopaths (no identifiable "conscience" or super-ego), unpredictable violent behavior (e.g., brain damaged, "bad genes", or other causes). Medications mediated those behaviors, but only as long as the patients were taking them.

In essentially every instance of those hospitalized by Court order or family/friends + physician's certification were "determined" to either have significant personal & social dysfunction (or) were determined to be "harmful to self and/or others".

Those individuals, we KNEW about. Many of our associates had the belief that those under our care were identified and in treatment...it was the ones that we had not identified (i.e., in the community) that we all worried about... Still, someone had to display some type of aberrant behavior (not necessarily a direct threat to person or property) for them to be given inpatient status... Then, after 90 days or so of medical and psychiatric evaluaton, observation, diagnosis, attempts at treatment, was the individual either released (or) an order of commitment given (or referred to out-patient treatment for follow-up).

This said...IMO while some individuals at that place and time were hospitalized in error, there was a mechanism in place to take action and follow-up. We were more concerned with protecting the inocent individuals & collaterals and the community than a fear of litigation (as is the climate in our current society).

In the final analysis, no one ever knows what is going on in the mind of others. We can only surmise, guess, and all. There will always be deviant individuals around us...some keep it under control...others don't. Even before guns and knives were invented, the ancients killed one another with rocks, clubs, and other tools at their disposal... This is the nature of life and death as mortal beings.

 

[Wewild]

Good post Running Arrow Bill.

How about the peer abuse of our kids? As you are studied, do you have any insight?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Just a thought, folks, but do you really think that the threat of public excecutions, armed profs or students, or any type of punishment would deter someone who plans to kill as many as possible and then turn the gun on themselves?

Yep I do, we have had nut cases since the beginning of time .Cain slew Able. You are not going to stop someone if they are bent on doing it. It would stop a lot of the copy cat crap.
Is prison a deterent it was when I was a child in Texas you where hoeing in the field all day with a guard on horse back equiped with a blacksnake whip and shotgun. You got to see the chain gangs work in town and on the highway.
Old Uncle was a guard in the prison system if one of the prisoners tried to run they dropped him in his tracks then hollered halt and fired a warning shot.
My oldest son is the farm manager on one of the prison farms today they can't make them work the sorry scum have more rights than me or you.

 

[auctionboy]

I am so sick of hearing everybodies ideas on how this can be stopped. In a nation of 300,000,000 people we will have crazy people do things like this again and again forever. No guns, or more guns wont fix the problem. Shame on anyone that has tried to push there politics and use this tragedy.

We can stop it by doing a better job of protecting our kids from peer abuse.

Everyone knows it happens and no one does anything about it.

This is a tragedy that happens ever day. It may be that just one has snapped this bad. What about all the others? What kinda damage do they cause over their life time?

Peer abuse? Kids will be kids. I don't want to live in a society where people grow up never having to be teased and not be able to cope with it, this would give so many kids a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist in the real world. I think what you are saying would make a whole country of stunted individuals and is the worst idea yet. Also it would be imposible to monitor the children close enough to actually enforce this. Nothing needs to be done, shootings will always happen.

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Good post Running Arrow Bill.

How about the peer abuse of our kids? As you are studied, do you have any insight?

Perhaps. When I was a kid, yes, I was "abused" by peers (aka teased, taunted, etc.) as most other kids were and still happens in this day and age. The kid version of adult power, control, intimidation. It happens all the time. This "abuse" happens verbally, occasionally physically, and via body language. In all probability this type of behavior can never be stopped--it is a process of children growing up. And, this type of behavior continues into the adult world: in the business climate via subtleties of social interaction among co-workers, employee vs. supervisors, department heads, etc.

Kids learn from a very early age that physical and verbal "power" (control) can get them the things they want, one way or another. It begins with infancy as 2 or more children bicker and "fight" each other for toys, affection, etc. It is the nature of "survival of the fittest" among the animal species.

Some individuals obviously take it to the extreme...for whatever social, religious, ethnic, genetic, physical, personal, parental, significant other, etc., issues are at play. And, in our day and age, we see countless numbers of violence, harm, etc., happening via movies, video games, TV shows, etc. Kids become desensitized to violence, death, and destruction.

There is no one stimulus that elicits deviant behavior. It takes time for it to develop resulting in a socially unacceptable outlet.

Societies will never eliminate deviant and violent behavior. Even when criminals are locked up in modern-day Maximum Security Prisons, violence and murders occur. Any individual Hades-Bent on doing harm WILL find a way to do it, even if it results in their own demise. They are thinking "for the moment" and not future consequencies of their action. Poor impulse control? Who knows. Conscious choice? Who knows.

The paranoid and sociopathic individuals are rather intelligent and very adept at detailed planning of their behavior. They are very creative in avoiding capture for a period of time. Some like to taunt and play games with law enforcement individuals and this becomes a Game of Wits and "control" of the law and others. They can usually present the appearance of "normality" through their personalities displayed to others; at the same time, they have their other "face" which is hidden but well documeted in their personal environment as usually discovered after the fact of their crimes. Signs and symptoms of their thinking are usually very subtle and may be viewed by others as "weird" but not "dangerous" at that point in time before the event(s). As I and we observed in the psychiatric hospital setting, some of these individuals were VERY sociable and appeared "normal"...until you were able to dig deeper into their personalities. Still others were rather obvious in their thinking and social behavior.

In a nutshell, weapon control is not the answer (a perpetrator will ALWAYS find some type of weapon). "Family Values" is not a 100% prevention tool. "Peer Values" is not a prevention tool. Any other given "tool" is not a deterrant. The etiology of violence is very multi-dimensional and inherent among the animal species since time began. Society can take precautions and be more cognizant of others' thinking and behavior; however, violence will contine as long as there is an animal species on our planet. I'm not being a fatalist...just being realistic...

 

[GMN]

[/quote]

Peer abuse? Kids will be kids. I don't want to live in a society where people grow up never having to be teased and not be able to cope with it, this would give so many kids a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist in the real world. I think what you are saying would make a whole country of stunted individuals and is the worst idea yet. Also it would be imposible to monitor the children close enough to actually enforce this. Nothing needs to be done, shootings will always happen.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on kids who get picked on at school, I think this is a real problem nowadays, and some kids are way to cruel to others. Teasing is one thing, but bullying, where a child gets physically assualted at school is quite another.

GMN

 

[auctionboy]

Peer abuse? Kids will be kids. I don't want to live in a society where people grow up never having to be teased and not be able to cope with it, this would give so many kids a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist in the real world. I think what you are saying would make a whole country of stunted individuals and is the worst idea yet. Also it would be imposible to monitor the children close enough to actually enforce this. Nothing needs to be done, shootings will always happen.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you on kids who get picked on at school, I think this is a real problem nowadays, and some kids are way to cruel to others. Teasing is one thing, but bullying, where a child gets physically assualted at school is quite another.

GMN[/quote]
words and physical assault are to very different things. Anytime when a assault happens I think they usually do something. I think me (as the bully) and some of you who were probably bullied differ for that exact reason, but don't pull your childhood trauma into this, that is just another way of politicing, personal politicing.

 

[Wewild]

words and physical assault are to very different things.

I'd say your wrong. You seem to be part of the problem. No form of abuse has a place. The person on the recieving end will be the judge of whether it is ok or not.

I think me (as the bully)

Back in the day it was ok to kick some a$$ if you felt pushed to far. You got in some trouble and maybe had to clean the baseboards or bathrooms. Now kids can't because of the no tolerance rules. I always recalled bully's cried worse than the folks that he picked on when he got his butt whupped.

In the end we can't say what will cause a reaction like we have seen. The issue will only get worse over time if people take your view.

 

[Ryder]

Back in the day it was ok to kick some a$$ if you felt pushed to far. You got in some trouble and maybe had to clean the baseboards or bathrooms. Now kids can't because of the no tolerance rules. I always recalled bully's cried worse than the folks that he picked on when he got his butt whupped.

This no tolerance stuff is one of the most idiotic things they have come up with. It takes away a kids right of self defense and makes him even more a helpless victim.

 

[GMN]

Peer abuse? Kids will be kids. I don't want to live in a society where people grow up never having to be teased and not be able to cope with it, this would give so many kids a sense of entitlement that doesn't exist in the real world. I think what you are saying would make a whole country of stunted individuals and is the worst idea yet. Also it would be imposible to monitor the children close enough to actually enforce this. Nothing needs to be done, shootings will always happen.

I have to disagree with you on kids who get picked on at school, I think this is a real problem nowadays, and some kids are way to cruel to others. Teasing is one thing, but bullying, where a child gets physically assualted at school is quite another.

GMN[/quote]
words and physical assault are to very different things. Anytime when a assault happens I think they usually do something. I think me (as the bully) and some of you who were probably bullied differ for that exact reason, but don't pull your childhood trauma into this, that is just another way of politicing, personal politicing.[/quote]

Actually I think sometimes words can hurt more than a punch, and I think if you are a bully you are in for a rude awakening someday when some other kid kicks your a$$. As for me having a childhood trauma, I don't have one, I was just trying to make a point, obviuosly you didn't get it.

GMN

 

[Workinonit Farm]

I always recalled bully's cried worse than the folks that he picked on when he got his butt whupped.

I agree. At least that was my experience many years ago, on several occasions.

There was one girl that kept on and kept on and I flat out warned her that if she didn't 'knock it off' she was going to get much worse than the doggone punches in the arms she was giving me. She didn't believe me and I nailed her, right in the 'breadbasket'. She wailed, and never bothered me again. I guess she wasn't used to other girls standing up for themselves who had been taught well by their brothers. That was the last time she put a bruise on my arm.

Katherine

 

[Wewild]

Good post Running Arrow Bill.

How about the peer abuse of our kids? As you are studied, do you have any insight?

Perhaps. When I was a kid, yes, I was "abused" by peers (aka teased, taunted, etc.) as most other kids were and still happens in this day and age. The kid version of adult power, control, intimidation. It happens all the time. This "abuse" happens verbally, occasionally physically, and via body language. In all probability this type of behavior can never be stopped--it is a process of children growing up. And, this type of behavior continues into the adult world: in the business climate via subtleties of social interaction among co-workers, employee vs. supervisors, department heads, etc.

I'm not being a fatalist...just being realistic...

Maybe so. I ain't ever been one to say never. My solutions just wouldn't be readily accepted by the the population that can accept never.

It's been my expierence that most kids learn mostly at home. I think I'd start with the parents of the kids that abuse the others.

 

[rkm]

What happened at Va Tech was a tragedy that seems to be happening more more in this country. To blame this on the right to own a gun is just plain stupid. But come on now! Do we really want teachers and students packing guns going to class? Maybe enemies of freedom have won.