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Buck Randall said:
That's why I said buying all replacements works for some herds, and won't work for others. It's a mixed bag. By definition, not all herds are average. I know some farmers that could greatly improve their herds by selling them all and buying new ones at the auction that day. I know some others that would be taking a giant step backward.
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If we're talking about commercial cows crossbred cows are better in almost every way that matters to a cattleman (gain, longevity, fertility etc) They're a mixed bag genetically speaking and will vary even when the same bull is used on the same cow. More genetic lottery ticket than exact science. I happen to think most cows can be good cows and perform given the right environment. I'm not arrogant about how good my cows are, they're just cows. I'm arrogant about everything I do to get my cast off herd to wean good growthy calves at a high rate, get re bred at a high percentage, have good dispositions and be generally easy to have around.
 
Rydero said:
If we're talking about commercial cows crossbred cows are better in almost every way that matters to a cattleman (gain, longevity, fertility etc) They're a mixed bag genetically speaking and will vary even when the same bull is used on the same cow. More genetic lottery ticket than exact science. I happen to think most cows can be good cows and perform given the right environment. I'm not arrogant about how good my cows are, they're just cows. I'm arrogant about everything I do to get my cast off herd to wean good growthy calves at a high rate, get re bred at a high percentage, have good dispositions and be generally easy to have around.
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I agree with most that you've said except that I don't understand not building your own herd genetics through keeping replacements. I believe calf crop consistency is the key to a commercial operation's success. Building a herd through a limited number of blood lines seems to be the quickest route to consistency.
 
Lazy M said:
I agree with most that you've said except that I don't understand not building your own herd genetics through keeping replacements. I believe calf crop consistency is the key to a commercial operation's success. Building a herd through a limited number of blood lines seems to be the quickest route to consistency.
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I just don't see the benefit from a cost/simplicity standpoint. My calf crop isn't inconsistent. I have a type and end weight of cow I like to buy - but I'm pretty free to change that given that I'm not reversing years of breeding if I do. I'm using the same bulls on everything (except heifers) I can also buy up a year if I buy breds. There's lots of benefits.

You gave the example of keeping 30 heifers back out of 70. Assuming you had equal number bull calves you kept about 21% of your calves. You have to select the traits and breed of the bulls you're using based on that 21%. The more traits you're selecting for the harder it is to move the needle. You may be sacrificing on 79% of your calf crop. As you limit bloodlines, you limit heterosis too so you could be losing ground you gain.

I don't really see one way as right and the other as wrong, it's a preference. I probably have a higher cull rate(not a good thing). My calves will have more variability but likely gain better. Yours will be more consistent - you equate that with success so you're doing things the right way for you.
 
Silver said:
The way I look at it is this. Grass is cheap. It's not far to grass and bull turn out. If it were me and the choice was to spend money to buy a replacement or keep her the choice is not difficult. Particularly if I can get her to raise a calf this year. If she doesn't breed back at preg check in the fall then off she goes. I don't feed open cows. I do graze a few that suffered losses in the spring. Driving to market is a 5 hour round trip. I don't buy replacements.
Buck and I very likely would keep an eye on her and every other expecting cow as per good husbandry practices. But I would not be concerned that she would repeat.
So the only real question is: Is it good practice to summer a cow that has lost her calf.
This is a question who's answer is dependent on knowing the cost of carrying her from the time of the loss of the calf until weaning / shipping time. After that she is just another bred cow. For me it costs about $3.22 per AUM to graze her. A little hay for a month or two. These are not the major costs of carrying a cow. Others costs will vary and each operator will have to determine whether it's worth it or not.
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Wow. Most competitive leases here are being rebid at $45 per AUM. A 30k ranch to the north of me was rebid at $56 per AUM.

I'm fortunate that i have lease ground that is considerably cheaper through friend and word of mouth. Grass definitely isn't cheap here.

Last year's drought you couldn't hardly get an AUM out of 100 acres. With the recent snowfall and the blizzard this weekend hopefully we're entering a better year
 
Caustic Burno said:
Makes perfect sense, with your line of thinking you only haul crap to the salebarn. I don't believe that. I can buy a quality heifer ready to go cheaper than raising her.
Secondly I can depreciate the purchase price plus inputs.
If she falls over dead I can at least write off the purchase price. There is no write off in the retained heifer other than inputs.
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Unless you're buying bred heifers and saving a year of feed, the taxation argument is stupid. The heifer you just sold is income that you're going to be taxed on right now, and in exchange you're buying a bred heifer that you're going to expense over what.. 5 years? Unless you have a magical or crooked accountant that can expense the animal twice, it's not going to work.
 
Nesikep said:
Unless you're buying bred heifers and saving a year of feed, the taxation argument is stupid. The heifer you just sold is income that you're going to be taxed on right now, and in exchange you're buying a bred heifer that you're going to expense over what.. 5 years? Unless you have a magical or crooked accountant that can expense the animal twice, it's not going to work.
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Actually it's not as your retained heifer has no value if she dies only her input cost.
I can sell the raised heifer (income) buy your heifer and depreciate and write off inputs. The purchased heifer has tax advantages.
The retained heifer will never have tax value unless sold versus the bought heifer always has value until completely depreciated.
Being Canadian I am sure your tax structure is different than ours.
 
Geez you're dense, the heifer you're selling is income RIGHT NOW, and just not making that income is just as good as depreciating a purchased animal as far as taxes go. And it makes no difference if either one of them dies in the long run
 
Nesikep said:
Geez you're dense, the heifer you're selling is income RIGHT NOW, and just not making that income is just as good as depreciating a purchased animal as far as taxes go. And it makes no difference if either one of them dies in the long run
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See this is where I think you're extremely dense.
If your heifer falls over died it's so sad too bad.
If my heifer I purchased with the sale of my raised heifer, I can write that 1K off.
The retained heifer is worth zero. Your retained cow will never have value to the IRS until sold. Apparently your American CPA is not very good.
 
Caustic Burno said:
See this is where I think you're extremely dense.
If your heifer falls over died it's so sad too bad.
If my heifer I purchased with the sale of my raised heifer, I can write that 1K off.
The retained heifer is worth zero. Your retained cow will never have value to the IRS until sold. Apparently your American CPA is not very good.
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Except you got $1K of taxable income from selling yours.. so there is NO benefit
 
Secondly I don't have two years of inputs on two cows with no return on investment.
The dam returned nothing to your operation for two years the retained heifer has two years inputs for a total of four before the retained heifer may pay a dime. If she craps out on you lost four years of inputs.
I haven't lost one year that a dam didn't return income.
If she craps out I got to write off her purchase price and inputs.
 
Rydero said:
I just don't see the benefit from a cost/simplicity standpoint. My calf crop isn't inconsistent. I have a type and end weight of cow I like to buy - but I'm pretty free to change that given that I'm not reversing years of breeding if I do. I'm using the same bulls on everything (except heifers) I can also buy up a year if I buy breds. There's lots of benefits.

You gave the example of keeping 30 heifers back out of 70. Assuming you had equal number bull calves you kept about 21% of your calves. You have to select the traits and breed of the bulls you're using based on that 21%. The more traits you're selecting for the harder it is to move the needle. You may be sacrificing on 79% of your calf crop. As you limit bloodlines, you limit heterosis too so you could be losing ground you gain.

I don't really see one way as right and the other as wrong, it's a preference. I probably have a higher cull rate(not a good thing). My calves will have more variability but likely gain better. Yours will be more consistent - you equate that with success so you're doing things the right way for you.
Click to expand...

I agree there are benefits to a terminal crossbreeding program. For my operation, I personally believe that the benefits of a continuous crossbreeding program outweigh the benefits of a terminal program...but that's just me.

Some of what you said is spot on, some is a little off.

You are correct that you will have higher hybrid vigor in the CALVES in a terminal cross program than a continuous program will. Your retained heifers and your cow herd will not (since you are not retaining any), and there is a lot of benefits to having heterosis in your cows as well as your calf crop (it's about a lot more than simply lbs gained).

Your statement about limiting bloodlines and it directly limiting heterosis could be true...it also could be false. It depends on the management of the rotational crossbreeding. A person keeping heifers and swapping out sires from different bloodlines could end up having less heterosis than someone doing a true rotational breeding program of 3 breeds. Let me try to clarify:

Heterosis is the inverse of inbreeding depression and assuming a person has a high inbreeding coefficient in their rotational breeding program...then you would be correct...a high inbreeding coefficient would lead to a decrease of heterosis. However, in a true rotational breeding program, the inbreeding coefficient is low. Well below the 12.5% threshold established for performance. Essentially you use the same principals as line breeding a purebred herd, you just add the crossbreeding rotation. Wye angus has had a closed herd for 62 years. Their inbreeding coefficient is around 6%. After a while of running your own crossbreeding program you can breed your own replacements and still limit inbreeding and have good heterosis. It takes discipline and hard culling, but the results are worth it in my opinion.

Running multiple breeding groups is easy for me with multiple lease grounds that I run my herd on. The bulls/horses stay here at home, the cows go in their groups to each designated lease ground. Then I drop the right bulls at the right place for the breeding season. Doesn't really add much extra work for me. Even if I didn't have lease ground, my owned ground is divided into multiple pastures, which I think is a must have practice for grazing. Side note: Ranch size isn't really an excuse. A friend of mine runs cattle on 2 ranches which combined are about 89k acres. I want to say his 50k acre chunk is divided into around 212 pastures but I'd have to go back and look at his stuff. They are divided with single strand high tensile electric. He runs both cows and yearlings, and he has 2 "interns" that work for him...that's it. It's a pretty awesome thing to behold how he manages and rotates his cattle and how easy it is for a man in his mid 70s to do...anyway...back from my rabbit hole...

Most people probably don't have the desire to do a true rotational 3 breed crossbreeding program, and those that do half the time select the wrong bulls. If you want consistency and health you've got to avoid extremes in any direction. If you aren't breeding your own bulls you need to select bulls that fit your environment, fit your herd, fit your program, and fit your goals (that means actually writing down a vision and real attainable goals for your herd).

As far as buying replacements...that works for a lot of people...especially if you don't have the discipline to run a continuous crossbreeding program. I've bought replacements from friends and also from the sale barn, and I've been very selective about what I buy. Still, it's been my experience that no matter how selective I am with my purchased replacements, they cost me more in the long run than my retained heifers do. Short run sure, they are better. But if I have a retained cow that produces for 15 years with no calving issues vs a purchased heifer that lasts 5, the numbers pan out in the long run for retention. If you're management is right...it's far lower risk as well...but if your management is wrong then it can be higher.

The comment above about it depending on your herd is correct. I've got the traits I want in my herd and I want to enhance those traits. Bringing in replacements from outside takes me back in the other direction. It depends on you and your program.

Like most things in life, you get what you put into your cows. Some people put in a lot of time into their cows, their calving, fighting against nature...and they get cows that require a lot of time. I'd rather put in the genetics that save me that time so I can have a better herd and time with my family (well unless the wife is on a rampage in which case I'd rather spend more time with the cows).
 
Jafruech said:
I agree there are benefits to a terminal crossbreeding program. For my operation, I personally believe that the benefits of a continuous crossbreeding program outweigh the benefits of a terminal program...but that's just me.

Some of what you said is spot on, some is a little off.

You are correct that you will have higher hybrid vigor in the CALVES in a terminal cross program than a continuous program will. Your retained heifers and your cow herd will not (since you are not retaining any), and there is a lot of benefits to having heterosis in your cows as well as your calf crop (it's about a lot more than simply lbs gained).

Your statement about limiting bloodlines and it directly limiting heterosis could be true...it also could be false. It depends on the management of the rotational crossbreeding. A person keeping heifers and swapping out sires from different bloodlines could end up having less heterosis than someone doing a true rotational breeding program of 3 breeds. Let me try to clarify:

Heterosis is the inverse of inbreeding depression and assuming a person has a high inbreeding coefficient in their rotational breeding program...then you would be correct...a high inbreeding coefficient would lead to a decrease of heterosis. However, in a true rotational breeding program, the inbreeding coefficient is low. Well below the 12.5% threshold established for performance. Essentially you use the same principals as line breeding a purebred herd, you just add the crossbreeding rotation. Wye angus has had a closed herd for 62 years. Their inbreeding coefficient is around 6%. After a while of running your own crossbreeding program you can breed your own replacements and still limit inbreeding and have good heterosis. It takes discipline and hard culling, but the results are worth it in my opinion.

Running multiple breeding groups is easy for me with multiple lease grounds that I run my herd on. The bulls/horses stay here at home, the cows go in their groups to each designated lease ground. Then I drop the right bulls at the right place for the breeding season. Doesn't really add much extra work for me. Even if I didn't have lease ground, my owned ground is divided into multiple pastures, which I think is a must have practice for grazing. Side note: Ranch size isn't really an excuse. A friend of mine runs cattle on 2 ranches which combined are about 89k acres. I want to say his 50k acre chunk is divided into around 212 pastures but I'd have to go back and look at his stuff. They are divided with single strand high tensile electric. He runs both cows and yearlings, and he has 2 "interns" that work for him...that's it. It's a pretty awesome thing to behold how he manages and rotates his cattle and how easy it is for a man in his mid 70s to do...anyway...back from my rabbit hole...

Most people probably don't have the desire to do a true rotational 3 breed crossbreeding program, and those that do half the time select the wrong bulls. If you want consistency and health you've got to avoid extremes in any direction. If you aren't breeding your own bulls you need to select bulls that fit your environment, fit your herd, fit your program, and fit your goals (that means actually writing down a vision and real attainable goals for your herd).

As far as buying replacements...that works for a lot of people...especially if you don't have the discipline to run a continuous crossbreeding program. I've bought replacements from friends and also from the sale barn, and I've been very selective about what I buy. Still, it's been my experience that no matter how selective I am with my purchased replacements, they cost me more in the long run than my retained heifers do. Short run sure, they are better. But if I have a retained cow that produces for 15 years with no calving issues vs a purchased heifer that lasts 5, the numbers pan out in the long run for retention. If you're management is right...it's far lower risk as well...but if your management is wrong then it can be higher.

The comment above about it depending on your herd is correct. I've got the traits I want in my herd and I want to enhance those traits. Bringing in replacements from outside takes me back in the other direction. It depends on you and your program.

Like most things in life, you get what you put into your cows. Some people put in a lot of time into their cows, their calving, fighting against nature...and they get cows that require a lot of time. I'd rather put in the genetics that save me that time so I can have a better herd and time with my family (well unless the wife is on a rampage in which case I'd rather spend more time with the cows).
Click to expand...
I buy crossbred cows/heifers. I run one big herd. It's less complicated. Many paddocks, only need to check one place. Easy.
 
Yes. If I had the last 40 years to do over again, I think I'd keep every second calf heifer that failed to rebreed. I was asking too much of them by keeping them in the main herd. I blamed the critter for stuff that was mainly my own fault.
Buck Randall said:
People who cull every animal that doesn't raise a calf aren't nearly as sharp with a pencil as they think they are. It's a better policy than keeping every problem animal, but the most profitable strategy is somewhere in between.
If a calf gets struck by lightning and dies, do you throw the cow on the trailer? Assume this is a young cow with no other problems. Culling that cow is the most expensive thing you can do. You're going to sell her at a steep discount, then raise her replacement at full price, or go out and buy a decent replacement that will take years to pay you back.
Keeping the prolapse heifer around and pregnancy checking her in six months is a low risk vent
Click to expand...
 
Muletrack said:
Yes. If I had the last 40 years to do over again, I think I'd keep every second calf heifer that failed to rebreed. I was asking too much of them by keeping them in the main herd. I blamed the critter for stuff that was mainly my own fault.
Click to expand...
Since I started fall calving in the far north, my heifers need a little more time to develop, and I am not about to subsidize them with a bunch of purchased feed, I don't get a lot of them bred -- just 40 percent this year. Going to do something radical this winter and keep some of those over to have their first calves as 3-year-olds. I've got them tame and they know my system. That's worth something to me. But if I need the cash between now and next breeding season, they can go on the trailer anytime. I've had lots of cows that skipped a year and went on to serve well until they are 15 years old or so.
 

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