Tractors...

[rocfarm]

Yes, this is correct. I want to grow, and plan to buy a tractor one time. Of note, I am well into middle age, fully disabled but one stubborn SOB, and am approaching farming/ranching as an opportunity to enjoy the years I have left, to learn, and to perhaps hand this off to one of my children. Whether equipment pays for itself is immaterial, as my costs to start the farm up from scratch are substantial and my timeline is shorter than if I started young. The farm will likely never pay off what I invest into it. This is a lifestyle choice for me. Any of us could end up in a wheelchair tomorrow, and I don't want to say I never tried the ag lifestyle because I wrote myself off due to disability.

Perhaps I am not understanding the financial aspects. I cut 300 regular sized square bales on 3 acres of unused ground in July for $1.25 apiece. Those bales could be sold for $10 apiece. That's $2625 profit. OR, I could hang onto them to avoid the cost of buying hay for my sheep this winter. Maybe someone should educate me on why a tractor can't pay for itself over time. It won't happen quickly, but I have more acres I could hay. Also opens up opportunities to make some cash on the side haying for other people. Also allows me to maintain my property (haha). Perhaps there are some tax breaks in there as well.

By the time I paid for my second-hand tractor, 13 pieces of maintenance and farming equipment, including a used 2003 Ford F-150, water troughs, well, piping to the troughs, and various fencing materials, I was in over 50,000$. And I still borrow my friends trailer and 90%of my tools are from my dad. And I still had to pay for the cows and their upkeep. Not to mention land taxes, truck insurance, diesel, gas, and things like remedy ultra (spent $750 spraying mesquites alone last summer) and backpack sprayers and tractor maintenance costs. It'd take about 40 head to efficiently pay that off over time, I think.

But you are right about haying. If you forget the cows and completely focus on hay, it was one of the few scenarios that Texas A&M folks said could potentially pay off.

Running cattle is a consistent loser, though. Most of us are made whole by land cost appreciation and the recreational side. I love my hunts on the farm! Turkey, deer, dove, wild pigs, coyotes, foxes, bobcats, raccoons, opossum… and when I feel like it. It's also nice to have ones own private gun range and build a camp fire under the stars at one's whim. And the physicality of it keeps me fit.

So I totally get the lifestyle choice. May your children adopt the lifestyle as well! It's a meaningful choice.
Here's my tractor, BTW. Kubota L4701. A great tractor for 160 acres of maintenance in central Texas.

 

[wbvs58]

I would think the choice of tractor would be around how it could be modified to allow you to operate it both in access and ability to drive it.

Ken

 

[TexasRancher]

@mml373 Good to keep moving and enjoying life. I like your farming plans. Although I don't think I'd go too heavy into haying equipment on 3 acres unless you can secure additional acreage (lease) for haying. Being a new cattle producer myself...besides all the good exercise and enjoyment of the cattle...it's to give-back and provided meat for humanity. What I do for hay, especially during a drought... is to figure out creative cost effective ways to feed my cattle and carry them through the winter. I'm clamping down on hay producers....then after some proven successes....I'll start writing some farming articles on these cost effective ways to substantially eliminate hay.
Being an engineer, newbie to cattle...with fresh eyes...most everything related to cattle has been documented well and works well...with the exception of cattle feed....the weakest area that needs broad-spectrum improvement are (all) methods of feed and their specific requirements. As droughts become more regular...cost effective feeding practices need to be adjusted in those areas. We're like 50 years behind in cattle feed, we don't even have a singular focused containers of feed with all forage-grain-mineral requirements for all stages of cattle (for drought conditions). Everyone is mixing things themselves their favorite way.

 

[Dave]

Back in the late 90's I was working for a conservation district and got sent to a grazing workshop. The keynote speaker was an extension man fro Nebraska. I don't remember his name but he wrote articles for Stockman grass Farmer. One of the things that stuck with me was his statement about not allowing a build up of heavy metal on your property. Working for a conservation district I thought heavy metals, like lead and cadmium. Then he added especially heavy metal with green paint. Fast forward 5 or 6 years and I was running 100 cows with only a 1950's 8n ford tractor. This guy showed how he was still profitable in the 1996 cattle price drop. I could see how his plan would work great where he was from but wouldn't work in my area. But he said and it hold very true. Every area has an unfair advantage. It is up to you to figure out what that advantage is and how to capitalize on it. If life style and a show place is your goal. Buy every piece of equipment under the sun and go for it. If running a profitable business is your goal. Figure out your unfair advantage and how to capitalize on it with the least amount of equipment possible.

 

[hurleyjd]

A lot of research and enovative ideas come from the Noble Research Institute Ardmore Okla. They have a free letter availbe in your e-mail.

Noble Research Institute

Noble Research Institute is an independent nonprofit agricultural research organization dedicated to delivering solutions to great agricultural challenges.

www.noble.org

 

[Lucky_P]

Good point about heavy metal accumulation...
I haven't seen numbers run any time lately, but at least 15 yrs ago, the UKy Ag economics folks were saying that if you weren't rolling at least 600 bales a year through your haying equipment, you would be better off paying someone else to do it, or buying in all your hay (if you can find it, and even tougher, in these parts... finding good quality hay to purchase).

 

[b.duke]

Here they say you need 150 hd cattle to afford hay equipment.

I will say.. anyone who had a lot of iron is in a VERY good place with how much everything has went up.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

"Running the numbers" may say that its better to buy or pay someone to make your hay if you do less than xxx bales a year.

But that assumes you can find good quality hay to buy at a reasonable price within a reasonable distance, or that there is someone available to custom bale for you when the hay is ready.

Those are all big hurdles in some parts of the country. For instance within 150 miles of me its mostly small farms that produce enough hay for themselves and maybe sell 20-50 extra bales a year. So if a guy wanted to buy in say 400 bales a year I'd have to buy from 10-15 suppliers and truck hay as far as 100 miles. That gets very costly to do.

 

[ChrisB2]

In addition, the people "running the numbers" seem to think you need all new equipment with high payments.

 

[Atimm693]

In addition, the people "running the numbers" seem to think you need all new equipment with high payments.

Pretty much. There's some nuance.

A guy can spend himself broke for sure. But there's a lot of good used equipment out there that isn't going to depreciate much, while not the best investment, it isn't just throwing money away.

 

[rocfarm]

"Running the numbers" may say that its better to buy or pay someone to make your hay if you do less than xxx bales a year.

But that assumes you can find good quality hay to buy at a reasonable price within a reasonable distance, or that there is someone available to custom bale for you when the hay is ready.

Those are all big hurdles in some parts of the country. For instance within 150 miles of me its mostly small farms that produce enough hay for themselves and maybe sell 20-50 extra bales a year. So if a guy wanted to buy in say 400 bales a year I'd have to buy from 10-15 suppliers and truck hay as far as 100 miles. That gets very costly to do.

Or you can figure out how to winter stockpile by running fewer head and using cubes, in some places at least. I've met quite a few guys who say they never feed hay in my parts. Some of them even work for the NRCS.

 

[chaded]

"Running the numbers" may say that its better to buy or pay someone to make your hay if you do less than xxx bales a year.

But that assumes you can find good quality hay to buy at a reasonable price within a reasonable distance, or that there is someone available to custom bale for you when the hay is ready.

Those are all big hurdles in some parts of the country. For instance within 150 miles of me its mostly small farms that produce enough hay for themselves and maybe sell 20-50 extra bales a year. So if a guy wanted to buy in say 400 bales a year I'd have to buy from 10-15 suppliers and truck hay as far as 100 miles. That gets very costly to do.

I am in a similar situation. The hay that is available close and reasonable cost wise is not very good hay at all. So far the sweet spot for me has been having my hayfields done on shares. So I stock my pastures to make sure I don't end up needing more hay then I get from my share.

But, that doesn't come without its issues either. I had a couple guys doing it for a couple years and then they had a falling out and left me hanging. I got another guy to do it and he didn't make it one season. I got my neighbor to finish it this year and he said he would do it next year but he is the last person I'm doing this with.

One, I am just tired of dealing with people at this point and also I don't know anyone else that is doing it. I could turn the fields to pasture but no water or fencing and very little shade. It's nice bottomland but is wet and sometimes floods in the winter so grazing then isn't an option. Fencing and water comes out to about what hay equipment cost. So yeah people can run the numbers but there are so many different situations and challenges.

 

[Dave]

"Running the numbers" may say that its better to buy or pay someone to make your hay if you do less than xxx bales a year.

But that assumes you can find good quality hay to buy at a reasonable price within a reasonable distance, or that there is someone available to custom bale for you when the hay is ready.

Those are all big hurdles in some parts of the country. For instance within 150 miles of me its mostly small farms that produce enough hay for themselves and maybe sell 20-50 extra bales a year. So if a guy wanted to buy in say 400 bales a year I'd have to buy from 10-15 suppliers and truck hay as far as 100 miles. That gets very costly to do.

It is a big old world with lots of differences in different areas of it. Here within 150 miles there easily well over 100,000 acres of hay raised by farmers with no cattle. I can hardly drive to town without seeing at least one semi load of going down the freeway. People make big squares because they stack and haul better. You see very few round bales. And the few round bales you do see are made by ranchers for their own use. I sold my hay equipment in 1997.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Or you can figure out how to winter stockpile by running fewer head and using cubes, in some places at least. I've met quite a few guys who say they never feed hay in my parts. Some of them even work for the NRCS.

Maybe some places you can do that. Today we have 12-18" of snow on the ground. We recieve nearly 18 FEET of snowfall on average so stockpiling isn't possible.

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

It is a big old world with lots of differences in different areas of it. Here within 150 miles there easily well over 100,000 acres of hay raised by farmers with no cattle. I can hardly drive to town without seeing at least one semi load of going down the freeway. People make big squares because they stack and haul better. You see very few round bales. And the few round bales you do see are made by ranchers for their own use. I sold my hay equipment in 1997.

From my doorstep you can only go 5 miles north before you run into 80 miles of Lake Superior before you get to Canada. Our local farming landscape is limited to the ancient "shoreline" plateau before you run into rugger rocky cliffs, small lakes, sandy knobs, and steep timberland to the south (much of which is federal and state lands). So things are limited around here.

 

[rocfarm]

Maybe some places you can do that. Today we have 12-18" of snow on the ground. We recieve nearly 18 FEET of snowfall on average so stockpiling isn't possible.

Yup. In that situation I might just by and sell stocker cattle each year instead of trying to hay, though. Would try to find another job in the winter. Would probably pencil out better. But There seem to be some people that can make it work and make money. Although, I've seen lots of folks that couldn't and went out of the business. As I think someone above said, haying is a losing proposition if you don't have enough scale (or aren't marketing your own beef).

But with the drought in central Texas, my winter is looking iffy. We'll see if it works this year…

 

[rocfarm]

From my doorstep you can only go 5 miles north before you run into 80 miles of Lake Superior before you get to Canada. Our local farming landscape is limited to the ancient "shoreline" plateau before you run into rugger rocky cliffs, small lakes, sandy knobs, and steep timberland to the south (much of which is federal and state lands). So things are limited around here.

I heard deer hunting is pretty tough up there, too. I salute you! I couldn't survive that cold.

 

[Nesikep]

It's really hard to pencil out buying a new tractor and making it pay with a few cows, but if you aren't in a rush, look around at farm dispersal auctions, craigslist, etc, and can just sit on your hands until the right deal comes along

 

[chevytaHOE5674]

Buying/selling stockers here is tough as the sale barn to sell to is 6 hours away and even the nearest to buy from is 5 hours away.

Our winters might be harsh but we dont have terrible droughts, fires, tornados, hurricanes, oppressive summer heat, etc and have cheap land and taxes. We had the worst drought in our history "here" last year and I still made a 60% hay crop and still grazed cows May to December.

I'll keep on making and feeding hay "unprofitably" and use income from the losing endeavor to pay for all the land and equipment as well as day to day living expenses. Haha

 

[rocfarm]

Buying/selling stockers here is tough as the sale barn to sell to is 6 hours away and even the nearest to buy from is 5 hours away.

Our winters might be harsh but we dont have terrible droughts, fires, tornados, hurricanes, oppressive summer heat, etc and have cheap land and taxes. We had the worst drought in our history "here" last year and I still made a 60% hay crop and still grazed cows May to December.

I'll keep on making and feeding hay "unprofitably" and use income from the losing endeavor to pay for all the land and equipment as well as day to day living expenses. Haha

Sounds like an interesting operation. We are at 35% of normal rainfall for the year, and it's October. Guess each place has its challenges.