Thoughts on these herf bulls

[Alan]

Just would like to get some folks thoughts on these bulls. Seems that Rib Eye and M326 have gotten a few knocks lately, which for the most part I understand and mostly agree with the comments made..... how about these guys.

1. UPS Domino 3027 (I know he's horned)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... D&9=5C5D5B

2. CJH Harland 408 (another horned)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... E&9=5C5C52

3. MSU TCF Revolution 4R (at the risk of having someone else ran off the boards by their comments :roll: :? .)
http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 2&9=5C5C5D

The recent thoughts on M326 was very helpful and I could see what folks where talking about comparing him to other bulls, can anyone do the same for Rib Eye....Harley I know you don't like him much (just my impression) maybe you can help me here.

I would still like informative comments on all bulls, but please let me know what you like and don't like about the bulls

Thanks,
Alan

 

[WichitaLineMan]

If i understand correctly there is a big debate as to the identity of bull #1. Seems like the Oklahoma Bureau of Investigation has determined that more than 1 bull has been photographed and purported to be UPS Domino 3027!

Tread carefully!

 

[WichitaLineMan]

In all seriousness, I really like UPS Domino 3027. I have for a couple of years. I have not used him however. Some of the best cattlemen here have expressed concerns over him possibly producing "too much" milk in his cows. That really didn't stop me from using him. I just was a tiny concerned about the pedigree. He is a L1 - Canadian cross which yields great results but I have my concerns about the stability of the breeding in the future. I'd rather see a "pure Canadian" or a "pure Line One" with his phenotype. Is that "clear as mud"?

 

[BSKDixie]

I have used 3027 before, but never on registered stock, we used him for a little while on about 500 heifers and cows and I have to say he threw some awesome calves, grew well, I'd have to check the books but I don't think we pulled any calves out of him, but several other calves we pulled oput of some of the other A.I. sires. He's awesome for commercial cattle and I have to say and his calves turned out very well great phenotype. To be honest we sold his calves sold by the truckload and brought WAY more and graded better than a couple of truckloads of Angus calves A.I. sired by some great Angus bulls, and I would easily use him again

 

[KNERSIE]

Alan, I struggle to understand where the interest in the three bulls in question come from? I can only assume you plan to use them correctively as they are three different types. I like 3027 very much, if I had a market for horned bulls I would definately give him a shot especially on cows that could do with a touch more milk, I would not use him on very milky cows though.

Rib Eye is one of those bulls I've watched forever waiting for him to grow into his potential, but so far I cannot say that he has yet. The photos of him as a yearling was in lean condition, that could easily be explained away by the fact that he was used when young. The mature pics he is again in good but trim condition, making me question his doing ability, surely there must have been opportunities to take pics of him to show him off after he has reached his full potential? He looks like a bull that is struggling to cope with his workload in his environment.

In short, his flawless phenotype, great hip and thickness that was raved about as a young bull simply isn't there in the photos I've seen of him.

 

[Alan]

Alan, I struggle to understand where the interest in the three bulls in question come from? I can only assume you plan to use them correctively as they are three different types. I like 3027 very much, if I had a market for horned bulls I would definately give him a shot especially on cows that could do with a touch more milk, I would not use him on very milky cows though.

I looking to put a couple of more bulls in my tank, I seem to mostly have sires and sons in the tank, ie; M326 and Rib Eye, 242 and Progress (I know Revolution is a 242 son, but he has Online on the bottom and the REA and IMF I'm after). The carcuss traits is one of the directions I'm going after, I'll never have the 60 cow herd and folks that I talk to seem more interested in freezer beef. So I'm leaning toward good growth with the carcass quality and at 52 yrs old easy calving. I the bulls mentioned should give me those traits and also contribute to the couple M326 stock I have. I really don't want to mess with horns, but I think the risk of getting horns is small, I only have one cow with horns close up in her pedigree. Hope this helps.

Rib Eye is one of those bulls I've watched forever waiting for him to grow into his potential, but so far I cannot say that he has yet. The photos of him as a yearling was in lean condition, that could easily be explained away by the fact that he was used when young. The mature pics he is again in good but trim condition, making me question his doing ability, surely there must have been opportunities to take pics of him to show him off after he has reached his full potential? He looks like a bull that is struggling to cope with his workload in his environment.

In short, his flawless phenotype, great hip and thickness that was raved about as a young bull simply isn't there in the photos I've seen of him.

I agree completly with your last statement, I wish I could see a good side shot of him as a mature bull. but the pics I have seen do not do him justice, judging from the pic of him from the front in the tall grass... he looks wide in that lousy angle of him.

Any thoughts on revolution, the last time I asked about him a year or so ago i post got hijacked and turned in a bit of a mess with no real good unbias input.

Thanks,
Alan

 

[JHH]

I dont have any personel experience with Harland but know of people who like his calves.But you cant get much consistancy breeding 5.8 frame and then jumping to 6.5 frame. I WOULD THINK that you would want a sire that fits your mind of what a bull is supposed to look like and sire consistant calvs

I think this is what Knersie was talking about when he ask about using them as corrective?

What do you plan to breed 5.5 frame or 6.5 ? I think you will find the bigger animals will mature much later and leave you with a feeling of I wish i would have. I have been down this road.

As for Revolution I thought we had a big discusion about him earlier?

So I guess I vote 3027 or his other picture or whatever.

Sorry I typed to slow

 

[JHH]

Any thoughts on revolution, the last time I asked about him a year or so ago i post got hijacked and turned in a bit of a mess with no real good unbias input.

Thanks,
Alan

I dont think he will be the curve bender or the numbers improver that you think he is. I dont have any proof of this just talking and I dont have a clue anyway.

I sure like your cows pics Alan why not breed the cows that had A-I calves and you liked them to the same thing?

 

[Alan]

I dont have any personel experience with Harland but know of people who like his calves.But you cant get much consistancy breeding 5.8 frame and then jumping to 6.5 frame. I WOULD THINK that you would want a sire that fits your mind of what a bull is supposed to look like and sire consistant calvs

Thanks JHH, this is just the kind of wake up call I was looking for, I never realized Harland was that big. :help:
Alan

I think this is what Knersie was talking about when he ask about using them as corrective?

What do you plan to breed 5.5 frame or 6.5 ? I think you will find the bigger animals will mature much later and leave you with a feeling of I wish i would have. I have been down this road.

As for Revolution I thought we had a big discusion about him earlier?

So I guess I vote 3027 or his other picture or whatever.

Sorry I typed to slow

 

[Herefords.US]

There's nothing wrong with any of the three - depending on what you want to achieve. My own preference would probably be the Harland bull - based on what I've seen of him and his calves.

I think the point that should be made is you pick one - and breed everything to them. This "mixing and matching" just leads to more "mixing and matching" and slows down overall progress. If you have a bunch of half sisters of similar type the choice of a bull for the next generation gets easier.

I'm having a similar related problem - I have 23 heifers in one pasture and they are by 6 different bulls. There's two different body types in the group and ultimately what I think I would like to have is somewhere in the middle of the two. So I'm trying to figure out how to get there with what I've got to work with.

Edited to add: When I saw Harland at the Harland Dispersal, he wasn't a big framed bull - in fact at that time I was wondering if he was big enough in frame for my use, because he had less frame than a number of his peers. I've changed my thoughts, and no doubt the Harland bull could have kept growing and matured out to be a bigger bull - but I would have guessed him as a sub frame 6 bull at the dispersion. Where is it posted that he's a frame 6.5 bull?

George

 

[KNERSIE]

I think the point that should be made is you pick one - and breed everything to them. This "mixing and matching" just leads to more "mixing and matching" and slows down overall progress. If you have a bunch of half sisters of similar type the choice of a bull for the next generation gets easier.

I agree 100% with this. Corrective mating seldom corrects anything when you use extremes. Stick to a certain type and if you feel you need to correct certain traits use a bull of the same type that leans just ever so slighty in the direction you want to strengthen.

 

[JHH]

There's nothing wrong with any of the three - depending on what you want to achieve. My own preference would probably be the Harland bull - based on what I've seen of him and his calves.

I think the point that should be made is you pick one - and breed everything to them. This "mixing and matching" just leads to more "mixing and matching" and slows down overall progress. If you have a bunch of half sisters of similar type the choice of a bull for the next generation gets easier.

I'm having a similar related problem - I have 23 heifers in one pasture and they are by 6 different bulls. There's two different body types in the group and ultimately what I think I would like to have is somewhere in the middle of the two. So I'm trying to figure out how to get there with what I've got to work with.

Edited to add: When I saw Harland at the Harland Dispersal, he wasn't a big framed bull - in fact at that time I was wondering if he was big enough in frame for my use, because he had less frame than a number of his peers. I've changed my thoughts, and no doubt the Harland bull could have kept growing and matured out to be a bigger bull - but I would have guessed him as a sub frame 6 bull at the dispersion. Where is it posted that he's a frame 6.5 bull?

George

It is the progeny that is averaging 6.5 sorry My fault I dont read everthing before I start saying something.

 

[Alan]

There's nothing wrong with any of the three - depending on what you want to achieve. My own preference would probably be the Harland bull - based on what I've seen of him and his calves.

I think the point that should be made is you pick one - and breed everything to them. This "mixing and matching" just leads to more "mixing and matching" and slows down overall progress. If you have a bunch of half sisters of similar type the choice of a bull for the next generation gets easier.

I'm having a similar related problem - I have 23 heifers in one pasture and they are by 6 different bulls. There's two different body types in the group and ultimately what I think I would like to have is somewhere in the middle of the two. So I'm trying to figure out how to get there with what I've got to work with.

Edited to add: When I saw Harland at the Harland Dispersal, he wasn't a big framed bull - in fact at that time I was wondering if he was big enough in frame for my use, because he had less frame than a number of his peers. I've changed my thoughts, and no doubt the Harland bull could have kept growing and matured out to be a bigger bull - but I would have guessed him as a sub frame 6 bull at the dispersion. Where is it posted that he's a frame 6.5 bull?

George

It is the progeny that is averaging 6.5 sorry My fault I dont read everthing before I start saying something.

Educate me , does this not show him as being an 6.5 frame?

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 272026212E

Thanks alan

 

[rocket2222]

Rib Eye is one of those bulls I've watched forever waiting for him to grow into his potential, but so far I cannot say that he has yet. The photos of him as a yearling was in lean condition, that could easily be explained away by the fact that he was used when young. The mature pics he is again in good but trim condition, making me question his doing ability, surely there must have been opportunities to take pics of him to show him off after he has reached his full potential? He looks like a bull that is struggling to cope with his workload in his environment.

In short, his flawless phenotype, great hip and thickness that was raved about as a young bull simply isn't there in the photos I've seen of him.

They're already selling semen by the bucket load on him, why do they need to fatten him up for one good pic.

 

[rocket2222]

Where is it posted that he's a frame 6.5 bull?[/color]

George

It is the progeny that is averaging 6.5 sorry My fault I dont read everthing before I start saying something.

Educate me , does this not show him as being an 6.5 frame?

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 272026212E

Thanks alan

No, that's his pogeny, individual performance, "his" is blank

 

[Herefords.US]

Educate me , does this not show him as being an 6.5 frame?

http://www.herfnet.com/online/cgi-bin/i ... 272026212E

Thanks alan

No, that shows he has 342 progeny measured at an average of 6.5. That's probably more important than whatever his own frame size is - to me that demonstrates that even though he was more moderate as a yearling himself, he doesn't appear to be passing it along. And that would make me look more favorably toward 3027 in my case.

George

 

[WichitaLineMan]

Something stinks in Denmark.

He has 741 YW records submitted and 342 YH submittals?

That is a pretty high percentage of people doing frame scores.

46%.

I have my doubts about that.

 

[Herefords.US]

Something stinks in Denmark.

He has 741 YW records submitted and 342 YH submittals?

That is a pretty high percentage of people doing frame scores.

46%.

I have my doubts about that.

Unusual, but look how many progeny have been scanned and it doesn't seem so high in proportion.

George

 

[smnherf]

Alan,

I will offer my observations. I have seen progeny out of all three of them. Mostly at production sales so I am seeing the top end and don't know how many were culled and didn't make the cut because a lot of bulls work well if the cow is good enough. They will all work in the right situation.

Keep in mind though of the three, Harland is by far the most proven. He has the most offspring in more herds and Revolution is the most unproven. Less than 100 calves in only 4 herds. It is my understanding that he can throw a big one once in a while. Not huge, but may need assistance in calving first calf heifers. The rear legs need watching.

It is my understanding that the 3027 bull is the real deal when it comes to heifers. I had some concerns though about how well they moved especially on the front end.

Harland is a bull that intrigues me the most. He would be the one I would use and I may very well use him on some heifers this spring.

To me, when I was starting out, I had a mixed matched cowherd. Lots of different pedigrees and some different types too. For me mating the right bull to the right female made a lot of difference in the outcome. I would use a couple new bulls every year on both commercial and purebred cows along with a couple bulls that I had used previously. This tied the data from one calf crop into the previous crops through common sires. I found some crosses that worked well and did them over and over again and some just flat out failed. Now as I get more and more into it the calf crops are becoming more and more uniform.

Brian

 

[smnherf]

I really like UPS Domino 3027. I have for a couple of years. I have not used him however. ............That really didn't stop me from using him. I just was a tiny concerned about the pedigree. ........ Is that "clear as mud"?

Yes it is clear as mud. So did you use him or not????