Frame score. I have a hard time selling a bull without "some leg on 'em" - to quote my customers. They want a bull that's 6-6.5. So, as much as I'd like to use them, I'm not sure I could sell them. I'm using CC&7, Kessler's Frontman and BC Eagle Eye - all bulls that are frame 6 or greater. I had some I87 I used up on some larger framed cows and I'm hoping the still end up frame 6.
The problem with OCC bulls for me . . .
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Frame and growth are my two issues.. At mature age, they are fine looking animals, but 85% of my customers sell their calves in the fall or after the first of the year. They like those calves to come off the cows weighting about 650-750 and 850-900 after the first of the year...
Also, i have tried hoover dam this year, 9 sons will sell in my bull sale. I am finding out they have a great amount of rib on them. I am asking where the butt is though, and his epd's have shown this... C&C 7's i went and saw and then viewed a bunch of calves at Hoovers and Sydgen's and they all have rib, shape and size, should be 6.3+ easy as yearlings, and they look alot like Hoover Dam's calves.
Also, i have tried hoover dam this year, 9 sons will sell in my bull sale. I am finding out they have a great amount of rib on them. I am asking where the butt is though, and his epd's have shown this... C&C 7's i went and saw and then viewed a bunch of calves at Hoovers and Sydgen's and they all have rib, shape and size, should be 6.3+ easy as yearlings, and they look alot like Hoover Dam's calves.
vclavin
Well-known member
Couldn't get CC & 7 semen this fall. Hope to try it come spring.
Valerie
Valerie
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
yep the majority of commercial cattlemen opperate the same way ...most want a 7 frame.Dusty":xoz9rrbu said:
JHH
Well-known member
ALACOWMAN":131dfumy said:
Wont the feed prices eventually catch up with these guys and look for early maturing smaller framed animals?
My friend who runs close to 5,000 head of cattle with most of them on the National Forrest(9,000'mountains) Can't really use a bull with a frame score under a 6.5- 7 They just don't have the legs to cover that country and stay sound. Plus as funny as it sounds there is a lot of brush up there and he needs bulls who aren't draggin their daubers in the brush all day.
If keeping heifers you might take this into consideration, but for a terminal operation I want the most lbs come sale day. Moderate framed cows with as growthy a bull as they can handle.JHH":2dqsvvg9 said:
Well we have to try to produce what the customer wants, however we also have to produce what will keep us in business. For us it is moderate frame cattle, in our enviornment if we have a 7 frame animal it would starve to death or melt in the heat and humidity. We also retain heifers, large frame cattle don't work in our enviornment so we don't breed that way. Another thing I will say is you don't have to have a powerful cow for her to have a powerful calf,if you have powerful genetics. Bottom line as breeders we have to know what works in our particular enviornment, and for our customers and do all we can to produce a product that works for both. I might really like a bull that is a 7 frame but he won't work for me, but that doesn't mean he won't work really well for someone in another enviornment. After twenty years we have learned not to chase fads or the hot sire but just to breed what we know will work for us and our customer.
Gizmom
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Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
gizmom":3gk560mp said:
Gizmon the word environment gets a lot of use in these discussions and it is rather vague to me as to what is actually being referred to. There are two things that come to mind for me when the term environment is used. There is management, which to me comprises grazing management, supplemental feeding, breeding season and lenght of breeding season, culling criteria, housing or lack there of, etc.
Then there is the environment defined by latitude, longitude, elevation, or I guess your geographical location and all the things that come with that.
Both are important, what I find interesting is the difference management can make in what works for one producer and not another even though they may be neighbors.
I am curious what you are referring to?
Oldtimer
Well-known member
3waycross":1v8nh9l6 said:
Yep - and for years folks that had government grazing permits (BLM, Forest Service, State lease)-- or like in our area graze in huge community pastures (thousands of acres of mixed private and government)-- have always questioned the discrepency in cow size... A few years ago- the local association was contacted about that-- and told that the government (BLM, Forest Service, State lands) were finally looking at using an average cow size/weight to figure AUM's- and to figure the charge these folks running these new sized bigger better faster cows should pay.....
Rather than the guy running the 6-7-8 frames that weigh 1450-1800+ for the same amount the guys running the 4-6 frames that weigh 1100- 1300-- and paying the same amount- the government and grazing associations are starting to wise up and look at it ....
Some of us that have mostly deeded pasture have long ago seen where the smaller framed cattle- that still bring in 600lb weaning weights (50- 75% of their dams weight)- and which you can bring in more pounds per acre are the way to go-- but it is nice to see others are finally looking at it too....
Dylan,
When I was referencing enviornment I was thinking about our physical enviornment here in northwest florida, the heat and humidity. But your reply makes me realize that I was also thinking feed input. Your correct, it is also a part of the enviornment . We have beautiful grass here in northwest Florida but to say it is high quality forage would not be accurate. In the spring our grass is really good but by June and July it loses a great deal of its quality. Now a forage person might be able to give you all the science and studies that would explain it, all I can give you is that if a cow is thin she will gain weight on our grass in the spring but by June she better be in pretty good shape because all that grass is going to do is maintain her condition, she may gain a bit but she sure isn't going to get butter ball fat. Grass in some parts of the country is better than others, weather mitght be better in one location there could be a drought or a harsh winter there are just so many factors that have to be considered. I am saying as a breeder we need to be aware of what will work for us taking all of these things into consideration. We need to know our customers, we can't be all things to all people, and if you try to convince someone that you are then you are going to end up with a unhappy customer. Twenty years ago when people said they wanted to purchase cattle from someone with a program I didn't fully understand what that meant. Now after breeding cattle for twenty years, I do. An operation with a program breeds cattle from proven genetics, it takes years (and mistakes) to build a program. When you make a breeding decision, it takes five years to truly know weather or not it was a good decision or not. It isn't until the calf from that breeding is in production that you truly know if it worked or not.
I guess what I am really trying to say is being in the cattle business is one of the toughest jobs but can also be one of the most rewarding jobs you will ever do. If we didn't love what we are doing we sure couldn't or wouldn't continue.
Gizmom
When I was referencing enviornment I was thinking about our physical enviornment here in northwest florida, the heat and humidity. But your reply makes me realize that I was also thinking feed input. Your correct, it is also a part of the enviornment . We have beautiful grass here in northwest Florida but to say it is high quality forage would not be accurate. In the spring our grass is really good but by June and July it loses a great deal of its quality. Now a forage person might be able to give you all the science and studies that would explain it, all I can give you is that if a cow is thin she will gain weight on our grass in the spring but by June she better be in pretty good shape because all that grass is going to do is maintain her condition, she may gain a bit but she sure isn't going to get butter ball fat. Grass in some parts of the country is better than others, weather mitght be better in one location there could be a drought or a harsh winter there are just so many factors that have to be considered. I am saying as a breeder we need to be aware of what will work for us taking all of these things into consideration. We need to know our customers, we can't be all things to all people, and if you try to convince someone that you are then you are going to end up with a unhappy customer. Twenty years ago when people said they wanted to purchase cattle from someone with a program I didn't fully understand what that meant. Now after breeding cattle for twenty years, I do. An operation with a program breeds cattle from proven genetics, it takes years (and mistakes) to build a program. When you make a breeding decision, it takes five years to truly know weather or not it was a good decision or not. It isn't until the calf from that breeding is in production that you truly know if it worked or not.
I guess what I am really trying to say is being in the cattle business is one of the toughest jobs but can also be one of the most rewarding jobs you will ever do. If we didn't love what we are doing we sure couldn't or wouldn't continue.
Gizmom
JHH
Well-known member
gizmom":1b5ro95r said:
A frame 7 bull will not work in my environment ( the way it is grazed and what there is to graze). I know that the commercial man wants ( dont know that they need) a bigger framed bull. If I had rolly polly fat frame 7 bulls for sale they would all be gone in 30 days. But the next time the guy that bought that bull from me wont be back because he melted and starved to death on fescue pasture.
I can show you a bull not to far from me that is a frame 7 or bigger and he completly melted away this summer. But I am sure that is not uncommon, it happens all the time.
So I guess I ask this. How many sires are there in angus, hereford, or whatever that will stay fit and sound and still maintain condition at a frame 7. I am betting not many.
I understand the terminal bull thing, but how can that producer afford to feed his bulls to stay in shape with 6.00 corn?
jscunn
Well-known member
JHH,
Does it really matter if the 7 frame bull melts as long as the steers he sires grow in the feedlot? At $6.00 corn it is more important than ever that the steers put on weight in the feelot. Less days in the feedlot equals more money. At the end of the day either we or our customers are producing protein, sometimes we all need to remember that. Find a cow that produces the steer that makes money in the feedlot, that is the ideal cow, whether she is 900# or 1500#.
Does it really matter if the 7 frame bull melts as long as the steers he sires grow in the feedlot? At $6.00 corn it is more important than ever that the steers put on weight in the feelot. Less days in the feedlot equals more money. At the end of the day either we or our customers are producing protein, sometimes we all need to remember that. Find a cow that produces the steer that makes money in the feedlot, that is the ideal cow, whether she is 900# or 1500#.
JHH
Well-known member
I see what you are saying. I just dont buy it. I dont think you have to have a frame 7 bull for the steers to weigh 1250lbs-1500lbs in the feed lot.
a frame 6 bull is big enough to do the same job.
a frame 6 bull is big enough to do the same job.
I can't imagine a fit bull losing so much conditioning in a 90 day calving window that he became unsound. There is a big gap between when a bull "looks good" (6+bcs) and when he becomes unsound because of lack of conditioning.JHH":tatds1mm said:
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
gizmom":12f7znvd said:
Good answer, thank you for the reply. I agree that with maternal genetics it takes at least 5 years to know what one has. From a longevity standpoint, by the time a sire is ten years old you will have enough daughters in production over a long enough time to know whether he is a cow maker or not. Udders, feet, ability to re breed on schedule and overall maternal value and productivity at that point will be proven. At which point marketing appeal will have long since expired, and If one were to use a bull heavily at that age he would be accused by the progressive folks of going backward, of under valuing genetic progress.....
Robert made a comment in another thread regarding the slow and steady wins the race methodology, which from a maternal stand point is the approach that is required, and like you said it is going to require that you love what you are doing. It is a long row to hoe.
I personally believe MI cattle need to frame down. I just can't sell them and, as noted, I actually need to sell what I produce regardless of what I think would be a better framed cattle. I just sold a 1/2 dozen cows and bull to a fella who was going to finish and sell sides of beef to friends and family. I pointed him to smaller framed, easier and quicker finishing cattle. I suggested to him that individual buyers would be more likely to buy a smaller side as it's more affordable. He left with the leggiest bull I had on the place because he "liked the way he looked". You can educate, but you can't make people's decisions for them.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
jscunn, it depends IMO to a certain extent under what conditions he lost that much condition and whether he can regain his condition easily. Maybe he bred 60 or 70 cows while competing with other bulls and he was in a large pasture, 7 or 800 acres and the poor bugger was working his a$$ off, literally. If he can do that and regain his condition easily in the off season without 5 gallons of corn a day then probably not a big deal, especially if he is being used strictly as a terminal sire. On the other hand hand if he is truly just an average breeder working in conditions that are not that demanding and he needs a lot of nutritional supplementation to recover and he is being used to sire replacements then it does matter.jscunn":3cu0nllm said:
Regarding $6.00 corn no doubt "it is more important than ever that the steers put on weight in the feedlot.", in addition it is even more important that those steers can gain efficiently. It is one thing to gain a lot of weight at 7 to 1 compared to 5 to 1. Efficiency of gain may not be there if the sire is truly a hard doer himself. On the other hand if he is just a really aggressive breeder working under challenging conditions and he regains his weight easily and quickly his steers might be efficient fast gainers also. With $6.00 corn though chances are more cattle will spend more time growing on grass so that the total corn input into their finished weight is reduced and it may be that cattle that are smaller framed, that mature more quickly and finish at a lighter weight become more suitable for finishing.
Dylan Biggs
Well-known member
angus9259":2upnkyq3 said:
The reality you just stated points to the fact that personal preference quite often trumps pragmatism, not a lot a guy can do about it.
I have sold a number of bulls over the years to an 800 cow outfit and when I choose and send bulls sight unseen they are not the same type as when the buyer comes and chooses, his mouth says one thing, his eye does another. What 's a guy to do? :???:
