The "NO HAY" approach

[shaz]

You guys in Tn. have already read this but I though everyone else might find it interesting.


http://www.ourcoop.com/ourcoop05/headli ... artID=2039

 

[Jogeephus]

A lot of people knock fescue but I envy those who can grow it.

 

[dun]

A lot of people knock fescue but I envy those who can grow it.

When we first moved to the fescue belt I hated the stuff. Did everything I could to erradicate it, seemed to nly encourage it. Decided to live with it and adapt. I'm still not crazy about it, but it grows when and where nothing else will, takes abuse and flourishes, puts on decent weight, haasn;t coaused an repro troubles I can trace to it, and the cows will fight to get to it out of the WSG or lespedeza. They even seem to prefer it to the one pasture that is a mix of timothy, OG and clover.
The real drawback is if cows aren;t raised on it they have a hard time adapting (if they ever do) to it.

 

[novatech]

I have always found it a lot more economical to work with mother nature than trying to change it. Down here we have Bahia. When you finally accept the fact it is not going away you realize it is pretty good forage. In the long run will save you a lot of expense not trying to get rid of it.

 

[JRGidaho`]

I've harped on this one before.

The best predictor of profit in the cow-calf business is how much hay you feed. The more hay you feed the more money you will lose.

JR

 

[Caustic Burno]

I have always found it a lot more economical to work with mother nature than trying to change it. Down here we have Bahia. When you finally accept the fact it is not going away you realize it is pretty good forage. In the long run will save you a lot of expense not trying to get rid of it.

Amen to that. Poor mans coastal might as well embrace it or go broke fighting it.

 

[cowsrus]

I didn't see in the article what he used for feed. He only mentioned minerals, unless i missed it.

 

[nap]

Some good, but not very surprising information. I harped on this topic last year in a thread called going hayless. At the time, I questioned the economics of putting up hay and expecting to actually make it in the cattle business. I was roundly beat about the head and shoulders by the hay lovers on this board so I dropped the topic. But, I didn't drop the concept and I am almost at the point where putting up hay or even buying a few bales will be nothing more than an unpleasant memory. I promised I would report on how the first winter went. Used 30 round bales of 2 year old hay to supplement 80 head. I lost a few calves because of birthing difficulties but my survival and pregnancy percentages were virtually the same as those years when I was stuffing the animals with hay. A good rotational grazing scheme and a good stand of fescue (K31) are all that I've used. I am continuing to improve my operation and fully expect a achieve my goal of no hay. I really think it is the only reasonable way to make a profit in this business.

 

[shaz]

Some good, but not very surprising information. I harped on this topic last year in a thread called going hayless. At the time, I questioned the economics of putting up hay and expecting to actually make it in the cattle business. I was roundly beat about the head and shoulders by the hay lovers on this board so I dropped the topic. But, I didn't drop the concept and I am almost at the point where putting up hay or even buying a few bales will be nothing more than an unpleasant memory. I promised I would report on how the first winter went. Used 30 round bales of 2 year old hay to supplement 80 head. I lost a few calves because of birthing difficulties but my survival and pregnancy percentages were virtually the same as those years when I was stuffing the animals with hay. A good rotational grazing scheme and a good stand of fescue (K31) are all that I've used. I am continuing to improve my operation and fully expect a achieve my goal of no hay. I really think it is the only reasonable way to make a profit in this business.

Tell us your story please. I would like to hear about your fertilizer routine, size of farm and paddock layout scheme. Also, when you do feed hay, what is the situation?

 

[nap]

Nothing really innovative. We live in an area (Southwestern Arkansas) where we get fescue growth pretty much year round. The animals are provided with loose mineral and occasionally a bag of range cubes. The paddocks are approximately 5 acres and we have about 30 of them. They are separated by permanent high tensile wire. During the spring I cut the size in half with polywire. Much of our operation and our grazing philosophy is explained on our web site baeyens3branch.com. No stampedes when a bale appears. In fact, more often than not, they will pick at it for awhile and then go back to the fescue. I'm not saying this will work for everyone but it seems to be working well for us.

 

[JRGidaho`]

IMHO, anywhere tall fescue grows as the predominant grass, there should be no reason to feed hay other than weather induced emergencies. We grazed beef cows year-around in north Missouri. We used a combination of stockpiled pastures and winter annuals (for a few years). The only fertilizer we used on the permanent pastures were lime, p & K so we could grow strong legumes. N-fretilizer is completely unnecessary for year-around grazing if you have grass-legume mixtures. We used N on annual ryegrass, oats, and rye and found those pastures were way more expensive than stockpiled perennials on a cow-day basis. So we quit doing annuals in that environment.

We stripp grazed with 1-3 day moves while we were in MO. Here on the ranch in ID we strip graze daily on stockpiled irrigated land. On rangeland we try to move every 3-5 days. We have used annuals in ID and find it very cost effective because the yield per acre is so high. When we use annuals, we swath graze.

If people in the fescue belt can't find the opportunity in late summer and fall to stockpile some pastures, they are probably overstocked and doomed to feeding a large amount of hay. To paint a real easy picture. Would you rather run 200 cows and lose $50/head or run 140 cows and make $50/head? For a lot of people, that is the simplest answer to their lack of profitability.

JR

 

[dun]

IMHO, anywhere tall fescue grows as the predominant grass, there should be no reason to feed hay other than weather induced emergencies. We grazed beef cows year-around in north Missouri. We used a combination of stockpiled pastures and winter annuals (for a few years). The only fertilizer we used on the permanent pastures were lime, p & K so we could grow strong legumes. N-fretilizer is completely unnecessary for year-around grazing if you have grass-legume mixtures. We used N on annual ryegrass, oats, and rye and found those pastures were way more expensive than stockpiled perennials on a cow-day basis. So we quit doing annuals in that environment.

We stripp grazed with 1-3 day moves while we were in MO. Here on the ranch in ID we strip graze daily on stockpiled irrigated land. On rangeland we try to move every 3-5 days. We have used annuals in ID and find it very cost effective because the yield per acre is so high. When we use annuals, we swath graze.

If people in the fescue belt can't find the opportunity in late summer and fall to stockpile some pastures, they are probably overstocked and doomed to feeding a large amount of hay. To paint a real easy picture. Would you rather run 200 cows and lose $50/head or run 140 cows and make $50/head? For a lot of people, that is the simplest answer to their lack of profitability.

JR

Just wanted to add emphasis

 

[novatech]

IMHO, anywhere tall fescue grows as the predominant grass, there should be no reason to feed hay other than weather induced emergencies. We grazed beef cows year-around in north Missouri. We used a combination of stockpiled pastures and winter annuals (for a few years). The only fertilizer we used on the permanent pastures were lime, p & K so we could grow strong legumes. N-fretilizer is completely unnecessary for year-around grazing if you have grass-legume mixtures. We used N on annual ryegrass, oats, and rye and found those pastures were way more expensive than stockpiled perennials on a cow-day basis. So we quit doing annuals in that environment.

We stripp grazed with 1-3 day moves while we were in MO. Here on the ranch in ID we strip graze daily on stockpiled irrigated land. On rangeland we try to move every 3-5 days. We have used annuals in ID and find it very cost effective because the yield per acre is so high. When we use annuals, we swath graze.

If people in the fescue belt can't find the opportunity in late summer and fall to stockpile some pastures, they are probably overstocked and doomed to feeding a large amount of hay. To paint a real easy picture. Would you rather run 200 cows and lose $50/head or run 140 cows and make $50/head? For a lot of people, that is the simplest answer to their lack of profitability.

JR

I have been preaching the less is more theory for years. Their still laughing at me and loosing money. Don't get over confident. You still need to have some hay in the barn. You flat out cannot count on the weather.

 

[shaz]

IMHO, anywhere tall fescue grows as the predominant grass, there should be no reason to feed hay other than weather induced emergencies. We grazed beef cows year-around in north Missouri. We used a combination of stockpiled pastures and winter annuals (for a few years). The only fertilizer we used on the permanent pastures were lime, p & K so we could grow strong legumes. N-fretilizer is completely unnecessary for year-around grazing if you have grass-legume mixtures. We used N on annual ryegrass, oats, and rye and found those pastures were way more expensive than stockpiled perennials on a cow-day basis. So we quit doing annuals in that environment.

We stripp grazed with 1-3 day moves while we were in MO. Here on the ranch in ID we strip graze daily on stockpiled irrigated land. On rangeland we try to move every 3-5 days. We have used annuals in ID and find it very cost effective because the yield per acre is so high. When we use annuals, we swath graze.

If people in the fescue belt can't find the opportunity in late summer and fall to stockpile some pastures, they are probably overstocked and doomed to feeding a large amount of hay. To paint a real easy picture. Would you rather run 200 cows and lose $50/head or run 140 cows and make $50/head? For a lot of people, that is the simplest answer to their lack of profitability.

JR

I have been preaching the less is more theory for years. Their still laughing at me and loosing money. Don't get over confident. You still need to have some hay in the barn. You flat out cannot count on the weather.

Anybody got a good drought plan other than hay or selling half the herd?

 

[Caustic Burno]

Don't overstock is the best plan. To many stock for good years and there a lot less of them than bad.
Too much rain and you can't get your hay crop in, drought no pasture or hay crop.
Run leaner and maximize the profit in ole Belle, there is no profit in a sack of feed except for the grain producer and none in hay period except for the producer.
The biggest problem in drought years everyone keeps hanging on to their overstocked operation thinking it will get better. Then you are giving cows away at the salebarn or you go into the welfare business of feeding out of a sack, until you haul them to the salebarn anyway.

Thats when guys like Boogie and I who believe there is no such thing as to much hay pick up good cows for pennies on the dollar to resale when it turns around.

Its just as much if not more about grass and hay management as it is cattle.
Cattle are the byproduct of converting grass to cash, no grass no cash.

I am carrying some over the winter to haul west this spring heifers and heavies are going to bring a premium.

 

[backhoeboogie]

It sure lets you spread eggs into many baskets. If you have hay, you can buy low and sell high any time. Why sell the hay for near break even prices when everyone has it?

A drought hits, you can hold and not dump cattle for a loss. Turn those heifers to cows if you have to. People who dumped in the drought will need to buy back. You are sitting on young cows perfect for the climate.

Normal years your cows make you a normal profit. On adverse years when everyone is upside down, you're not. Hay prices go through the ceiling, you're sitting pretty to make a profit on excess hay and can help folks out who have had your back.

 

[novatech]

Don't overstock is the best plan. To many stock for good years and there a lot less of them than bad.
Too much rain and you can't get your hay crop in, drought no pasture or hay crop.
Run leaner and maximize the profit in ole Belle, there is no profit in a sack of feed except for the grain producer and none in hay period except for the producer.
The biggest problem in drought years everyone keeps hanging on to their overstocked operation thinking it will get better. Then you are giving cows away at the salebarn or you go into the welfare business of feeding out of a sack, until you haul them to the salebarn anyway.

Thats when guys like Boogie and I who believe there is no such thing as to much hay pick up good cows for pennies on the dollar to resale when it turns around.

Its just as much if not more about grass and hay management as it is cattle.
Cattle are the byproduct of converting grass to cash, no grass no cash.

I am carrying some over the winter to haul west this spring heifers and heavies are going to bring a premium.

Sure is a lot easier to get rid of extra grass than have to part with those pride and joy cows.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Don't overstock is the best plan. To many stock for good years and there a lot less of them than bad.
Too much rain and you can't get your hay crop in, drought no pasture or hay crop.
Run leaner and maximize the profit in ole Belle, there is no profit in a sack of feed except for the grain producer and none in hay period except for the producer.
The biggest problem in drought years everyone keeps hanging on to their overstocked operation thinking it will get better. Then you are giving cows away at the salebarn or you go into the welfare business of feeding out of a sack, until you haul them to the salebarn anyway.

Thats when guys like Boogie and I who believe there is no such thing as to much hay pick up good cows for pennies on the dollar to resale when it turns around.

Its just as much if not more about grass and hay management as it is cattle.
Cattle are the byproduct of converting grass to cash, no grass no cash.

I am carrying some over the winter to haul west this spring heifers and heavies are going to bring a premium.

Sure is a lot easier to get rid of extra grass than have to part with those pride and joy cows.

Well I saw poor grass and hay mangement today at the salebarn came home with a 5x7 Brangus and Black Baldie 6x8 for a 1000 bucks. There were a lot of good cows going to slaughter no buyers. I will calf these out rebreed them to a Hereford and haul them west with heifers I held over.

 

[Jogeephus]

I have always found it a lot more economical to work with mother nature than trying to change it. Down here we have Bahia. When you finally accept the fact it is not going away you realize it is pretty good forage. In the long run will save you a lot of expense not trying to get rid of it.

I'm of the same mind set but I do wish we had fescue. Raising cattle would require little to no work if I could make it grow alongside the bahia and bermuda. Lots of people knock bahia but bahia offers good grazing for about 8 months. Annually, it produces about the same amount as bermuda but is spread out over 8 months rather than roughly 5 months the bermuda is growing. But with bermuda, those 4-5 months are glorious and there is no way in the world cows can keep up with both of them under reasonable weather conditions so we make hay and lots of it. Granted, hay is a pain but where else are you gonna get 10+% TDN feed for $70/ton? Sure is cheaper than winter grazing.IMO But I'm always willing to change to something better. Just haven't found it yet.

 

[shaz]

I have always found it a lot more economical to work with mother nature than trying to change it. Down here we have Bahia. When you finally accept the fact it is not going away you realize it is pretty good forage. In the long run will save you a lot of expense not trying to get rid of it.

I'm of the same mind set but I do wish we had fescue. Raising cattle would require little to no work if I could make it grow alongside the bahia and bermuda. Lots of people knock bahia but bahia offers good grazing for about 8 months. Annually, it produces about the same amount as bermuda but is spread out over 8 months rather than roughly 5 months the bermuda is growing. But with bermuda, those 4-5 months are glorious and there is no way in the world cows can keep up with both of them under reasonable weather conditions so we make hay and lots of it. Granted, hay is a pain but where else are you gonna get 10+% TDN feed for $70/ton? Sure is cheaper than winter grazing.IMO But I'm always willing to change to something better. Just haven't found it yet.

That's the point. I hope we're talking about how to prolong grazing. Using drought as buying opportunity goes without saying. We all do it when possible. Let's break some new ground.