The "NO HAY" approach

[Jogeephus]

Let's break some new ground.

Until someone comes up with some southern fescue or something similar there is no new ground to break. Research station here has whipped this puppy to death and due to our climate stockpiling is not the most efficient way.

 

[gberry]

Let's break some new ground.

Until someone comes up with some southern fescue or something similar there is no new ground to break. Research station here has whipped this puppy to death and due to our climate stockpiling is not the most efficient way.

I've read before that bahia or bermuda stockpiled in late fall can meet the nutrient requirements for dry cows well into January and we have been able to graze our dry cows into January without too much difficulty. Our real problem is with growing classes of cattle. Getting our heifers to breeding weight with this system is impossible without heavy supplementation.

 

[JRGidaho`]

I have always found it a lot more economical to work with mother nature than trying to change it. Down here we have Bahia. When you finally accept the fact it is not going away you realize it is pretty good forage. In the long run will save you a lot of expense not trying to get rid of it.

I'm of the same mind set but I do wish we had fescue. Raising cattle would require little to no work if I could make it grow alongside the bahia and bermuda. Lots of people knock bahia but bahia offers good grazing for about 8 months. Annually, it produces about the same amount as bermuda but is spread out over 8 months rather than roughly 5 months the bermuda is growing. But with bermuda, those 4-5 months are glorious and there is no way in the world cows can keep up with both of them under reasonable weather conditions so we make hay and lots of it. Granted, hay is a pain but where else are you gonna get 10+% TDN feed for $70/ton? Sure is cheaper than winter grazing.IMO But I'm always willing to change to something better. Just haven't found it yet.

Interesting observation above. Very different from my experiences....

We found winter annual forage like annual ryegrass and oats to be about half the cost of feeding hay when we were in MO and there we only valued hay at $56/ton cost of production. Here in Idaho we've grazed both standing and swathed barley-oat-winter pea mix and found the cost to be about 1/3rd and 1/2 the cost of hay, respectively. In both cases we no-tilled the winter annuals so we didn't have the big tillage cost I see a lot of Southern cattleman rack up.

We also tightly strip graze and typically harvest between 200 and 300 cow-days/acre.

On stockpiled perennial pasture we're usually less than 1/3rd the cost of hay feeding. The only advantage I see to feeding hay is when you buy it and feed it out on the pastures to capture the nitrogen and minerals held in the hay. Last year a ton of grass-clover hay contained $50-$60 worth of NPK plus a lot of micronutrients and usually at least 800 lb of organic matter dumped on your ground.

 

[Jogeephus]

The grazing station did a lot of research on stockpiling bahia and bermuda and found that our winter rains leach much of the nutrients out of what would otherwise be very good grass. Not saying stockpiling can't be done but you will have to supplement heavily like Gberry said. To me, I feel I have failed in managment if I have to supplement.

We also tightly strip graze and typically harvest between 200 and 300 cow-days/acre.

If I could get that many days I'd do it too but am lucky to get 100 which was the break even point about 5 years ago when fertilizer prices were low and cattle prices higher. I do plant ryegrass and some winter annuals but the ryegrass doesn't grow well till spring and the winter annuals are just candy or used for growing animals. But as a rule, they don't offer any significant grazing. Instead I set aside one acre of hay for each 8 cows and this will cover the herd for the winter. Any extra is either sold or stored for next year. Other than that, they get nothing else and my cost head is low and my calving rate on a 60 day calving schedule is well above average. I'd love to not be bothered with feeding hay and think I could run year round grazing if I could grow fescue.

I think our stockpiling problem may have something to do with our high humidity as well. Not sure about that though.

 

[gberry]

I have been kicking around the idea of "mob grazing" to try and extend our grazing to year round. By concentrating our stock to 100,000 lb/acre stock density, we could extend our rest period to at least 75 days. Of course, the problem is a 75 day rest period would probably lead to lower quality forage than needed for cows with calves. This problem aside, if our rotation was 75 or more days, I believe you could start no-tilling ryegrass in October as you made your rotations and have ryegrass ready to graze by the time you reached the start again.

I have read about Joel Salatin and Greg Judy mob grazing older forage like this with good results. I believe Salatin's climate would be more similar to our than Judy's, but both would likely have forage that would maintain higher levels of nutrition than our bermuda and bahia grass at 75 days growth. I think establishing white clover or similar legumes may counteract the lower quality bahia, but we have had some difficulty establishing legumes.

Of course, this would require quite a bit more work, but less than making hay. I'm just not sure how much animal performance would suffer.

 

[Caustic Burno]

I know a man that almost grazes year round on stockpiled Bahia, rye grass and clover. I have no idea what his fertilze bill is, he uses a lot.

 

[JRGidaho`]

I have been kicking around the idea of "mob grazing" to try and extend our grazing to year round. By concentrating our stock to 100,000 lb/acre stock density, we could extend our rest period to at least 75 days. Of course, the problem is a 75 day rest period would probably lead to lower quality forage than needed for cows with calves. This problem aside, if our rotation was 75 or more days, I believe you could start no-tilling ryegrass in October as you made your rotations and have ryegrass ready to graze by the time you reached the start again.

I have read about Joel Salatin and Greg Judy mob grazing older forage like this with good results. I believe Salatin's climate would be more similar to our than Judy's, but both would likely have forage that would maintain higher levels of nutrition than our bermuda and bahia grass at 75 days growth. I think establishing white clover or similar legumes may counteract the lower quality bahia, but we have had some difficulty establishing legumes.

Of course, this would require quite a bit more work, but less than making hay. I'm just not sure how much animal performance would suffer.

If you have dry, pregnant cows through the winter, you can mob graze just about anything and get by with minimal supplementation. If you're calving in the winter months, that's when bahia and bermuda aren't going to cut it.

I think the early no-tilling of ryegrass sounds like a real good idea. I think I know of someone in north FL who is grazing year-around. I'll see if I can track him down and find out what he's doing.

jr

 

[shaz]

I know a man that almost grazes year round on stockpiled Bahia, rye grass and clover. I have no idea what his fertilze bill is, he uses a lot.

I'm grazing KY31 almost year round. I've been feeding hay to stop the squirts though. My fertilizer bill is pretty bad too. My stockpile pastures get 120lb of nitrate and regular pastures get 60lb a year. Potash is on an as-needed basis.

Got 8 inches of Bermuda all over the place and the cows ignore it.

 

[Jogeephus]

One important thing I think we are leaving out in this discussion is the stocking rate. I have successfully done the no hay approach with one pair per 4 acres but there are 8 months of the year where the forage is under utilized and it just don't seem right to have that much extra forage.

What worked well for me was to graph the forage production by month and yield. This gave me a good idea of where the weak areas were in my grazing system and gave me an idea as to what my fields need to be composed of. After I did this I tried filling in the blanks and set my calving based on when the most nutrious forages would overlap and peak at or near their third month and forward. Unfortunately I haven't been able to consistantly and economically fill a 3-4 month void in this system. Hence hay. Fescue would do this but unfortunately we can't grow it here but I'm still trying other things in hopes of finding this holy grail.

 

[gberry]

One important thing I think we are leaving out in this discussion is the stocking rate. I have successfully done the no hay approach with one pair per 4 acres but there are 8 months of the year where the forage is under utilized and it just don't seem right to have that much extra forage.

What worked well for me was to graph the forage production by month and yield. This gave me a good idea of where the weak areas were in my grazing system and gave me an idea as to what my fields need to be composed of. After I did this I tried filling in the blanks and set my calving based on when the most nutrious forages would overlap and peak at or near their third month and forward. Unfortunately I haven't been able to consistantly and economically fill a 3-4 month void in this system. Hence hay. Fescue would do this but unfortunately we can't grow it here but I'm still trying other things in hopes of finding this holy grail.

When does your void occur? I think one pair per 4 acres is a little low, but one pair per 4 acres making money is better than one pair per acre losing money. I'm sure you've done the calculations.

I have a friend who planted KY-31 here this winter. I don't think it will make it through the summer, but if it does, that would be perfect.

I think we could make it through without hay for mature cows at a 1 cow per 2 acres stocking rate, but we'd have to drylot our replacements (or sell all calves and buy replacements).

In regards to the excess forage during the spring and early summer, you could run heavy stockers or thin cows to help keep up.

There are seemingly endless possibilities, the problem is they all take a year or 2 trial and a significant investment of time and money only to find they don't work. I'm still trying, though.

 

[novatech]

In regards to the excess forage during the spring and early summer, you could run heavy stockers or thin cows to help keep up.

There are seemingly endless possibilities, the problem is they all take a year or 2 trial and a significant investment of time and money only to find they don't work. I'm still trying, though.

A 75% stocking rate will usually allow for proper management of forage. Buying stockers is a gamble but it beats feeding hay. I have sold off excess forage as hay. For that matter I would rather mow down excess forage than feed hay. In some areas it can be held over as standing forage. If you have your own hay meadow costs can be cut by simply leaving the last cut standing and allowing cows to graze it. That ends up being no cost hay. Most of the time it eliminates the spring fertilizer application.
Some grasses make better stockpiled forage than others. For me Tifton 85 and bluestem work the best. A shot of liquid N gives it a boost of protein just before first frost. It will retain decent nutrients until about February. You just have to find the one that will work the best for you if any.
Rye that reseeds it self works good. There is flat out nothing better than clover.
A lot depends on how much time you have to devote to management.

 

[Jogeephus]

When does your void occur? I think one pair per 4 acres is a little low, but one pair per 4 acres making money is better than one pair per acre losing money.

1:4 is low to me too. But the good thing about this stocking rate is you can leave your gates open and the cows won't leave the pasture.(I know this from experience ) Our void normally begins at the end of November and runs till about mid February. If we have a wet spring and if we have steady temps during the winter things aren't so bad and there will be grazing. But if we have a dry fall or wild swings in the weather this will mess with forage production. These IF's can make or break you.

I also agree with you about making money but prefer to keep track of this on a per acre basis rather than a per head basis. Afterall, I net I'd rather net $400/calf on 2 acres than $600 on 4 acres. Just easier to compare other options.

 

[CJohnson]

I am located in East Texas. I have been trying to minimize hay use, too. I moved calving back to start end of February instead of end of January. I grazed stockpiled Coastal from November to January 15, then have been feeding hay. I have a little (50 acres) of Max Q fescue but this was stockpiled for yearlings. I am sprigging Tifton this spring, and hope it will stockpile better and hold nutrition longer in the winter. What about planting forage turnips? Will they hold up through cold weather to graze in January, kind of like stockpiling? I need more Crimson as Crimson / ryegrass is the earliest grazing besides an annual cereal grain but we don't have enough of it to graze until mid-February. Filling in that mid January to mid February gap is tough. Sure would like to hear more ideas.
Chris

 

[gberry]

When does your void occur? I think one pair per 4 acres is a little low, but one pair per 4 acres making money is better than one pair per acre losing money.

1:4 is low to me too. But the good thing about this stocking rate is you can leave your gates open and the cows won't leave the pasture.(I know this from experience ) Our void normally begins at the end of November and runs till about mid February. If we have a wet spring and if we have steady temps during the winter things aren't so bad and there will be grazing. But if we have a dry fall or wild swings in the weather this will mess with forage production. These IF's can make or break you.

I also agree with you about making money but prefer to keep track of this on a per acre basis rather than a per head basis. Afterall, I net I'd rather net $400/calf on 2 acres than $600 on 4 acres. Just easier to compare other options.

Your pasture cycle is not much different than ours. I am sure you could stockpile bahia to get you to January 1st, but it all depends on what class of animals you are grazing. For our dry cows, it seems more than adequate, but for replacements, we have to supplement or have a bunch that don't get to breeding weight.

We usually get our grazing started in December, but to do this, we have to plant on a prepared seedbed. I want to get away from this as it really sets back the spring pasture not to mention reduces the amount of pasture that we can stockpile. We've just leased a piece of property that will basically double our acreage and I am hopeful we can make it through without hay this year.

I know you have thought of and likely tried all of this in the past, but I'm enjoying the discussion. BTW, if your net is $400 or $600 per calf, I would continue your current practices.

 

[Caustic Burno]

When does your void occur? I think one pair per 4 acres is a little low, but one pair per 4 acres making money is better than one pair per acre losing money.

1:4 is low to me too. But the good thing about this stocking rate is you can leave your gates open and the cows won't leave the pasture.(I know this from experience ) Our void normally begins at the end of November and runs till about mid February. If we have a wet spring and if we have steady temps during the winter things aren't so bad and there will be grazing. But if we have a dry fall or wild swings in the weather this will mess with forage production. These IF's can make or break you.

I also agree with you about making money but prefer to keep track of this on a per acre basis rather than a per head basis. Afterall, I net I'd rather net $400/calf on 2 acres than $600 on 4 acres. Just easier to compare other options.

Your pasture cycle is not much different than ours. I am sure you could stockpile bahia to get you to January 1st, but it all depends on what class of animals you are grazing. For our dry cows, it seems more than adequate, but for replacements, we have to supplement or have a bunch that don't get to breeding weight.

We usually get our grazing started in December, but to do this, we have to plant on a prepared seedbed. I want to get away from this as it really sets back the spring pasture not to mention reduces the amount of pasture that we can stockpile. We've just leased a piece of property that will basically double our acreage and I am hopeful we can make it through without hay this year.

I know you have thought of and likely tried all of this in the past, but I'm enjoying the discussion. BTW, if your net is $400 or $600 per calf, I would continue your current practices.

Netting 400 dollars a calf puts most people in the red. When it cost 1.25 a day to upkeep a cow comes to 456 dollars a year, can't stay in business long.

 

[JRGidaho`]

Netting 400 dollars a calf puts most people in the red. When it cost 1.25 a day to upkeep a cow comes to 456 dollars a year, can't stay in business long.

I think we must have some confusion going on between gross and net. Gross is what you receive for the calf at sale time. Net is what is left in your pocket after all costs, both direct and overhead , are paid. A net of $150 per calf is exceptional. Net of $20 to $50 is more common (if you're not actually losing money).

 

[Jogeephus]

but I'm enjoying the discussion

Same here. Been informative and gives good food for thought.

We usually get our grazing started in December, but to do this, we have to plant on a prepared seedbed. I want to get away from this as it really sets back the spring pasture not to mention reduces the amount of pasture that we can stockpile.

I do some of this too but have gotten away from much of it and replaced it with a balance of bahia and bermuda. Each has its strengths and weaknesses and figuring out the optimal ratio is an interesting puzzle to solve. The only reason I still plant winter annuals on prepared seedbeds is to keep some dirt open for millet.

To me, its all about balance and what works and keeps your herd healthy and fertile.

 

[nap]

but I'm enjoying the discussion

Same here. Been informative and gives good food for thought.

We usually get our grazing started in December, but to do this, we have to plant on a prepared seedbed. I want to get away from this as it really sets back the spring pasture not to mention reduces the amount of pasture that we can stockpile.

I do some of this too but have gotten away from much of it and replaced it with a balance of bahia and bermuda. Each has its strengths and weaknesses and figuring out the optimal ratio is an interesting puzzle to solve. The only reason I still plant winter annuals on prepared seedbeds is to keep some dirt open for millet.

To me, its all about balance and what works and keeps your herd healthy and fertile.

I totally agree. It is essential to fit your operation to your environment. In this regard, it is important to pick the breeds that work best in your environment. In our case, we find that an F1 cross originating from a Brahman and a Hereford works best for us in Southwest Arkansas. The Brahman component requires a little more nurturing in cold weather while the Herefords need more care during our hot summers. The F1 Brafords seem to bridge the difference nicely and thrive throughout the year. I think breed selection is paramount for conserving feed.

 

[novatech]

I think if you are ever going to get to the no hay situation you have to begin by being an experimenter. I am constantly researching grasses. I am looking along the roadside trying to figure out what is hardy for the weather conditions and soil in my area. I have even picked the seed and planted it. I can read up on what works for others but may not do me a lick of good for my conditions. I believe in defying the system, not doing what everyone else does, to some degree.
The hybred Bermudas are very popular but they are not as water and fertilizer efficient as some of the native or naturalized grasses. It seems as though many people are trying to maximize quantity of cattle on a given acreage rather than maximizing profit on the acreage.
For an example; Eastren Gamma Grass was one of the primary forages in Texas. People did not manage it properly and most of it was killed off. I just read an article where a local man had a good stand and was baling it. He produced 8% protein with zero inputs. To me this seems to be efficient. ( You just never want to have to drive over it, gaint stubble )

 

[Jogeephus]

you have to begin by being an experimenter. I am constantly researching grasses. I am looking along the roadside trying to figure out what is hardy for the weather conditions and soil in my area. I have even picked the seed and planted it. I can read up on what works for others but may not do me a lick of good for my conditions. I believe in defying the system, not doing what everyone else does, to some degree.
The hybred Bermudas are very popular but they are not as water and fertilizer efficient as some of the native or naturalized grasses. It seems as though many people are trying to maximize quantity of cattle on a given acreage rather than maximizing profit on the acreage.

I agree with the experimentation. Keeps things interesting as well. I'm not one to follow the pack either especially when my check book shows me its financial suicide. Like you say, optimizing production is not neccessarily the same as optimizing return. I would hate to know I had everything planted in hybrid bermudas. Just don't think it would work. Bermudas are great and have their place but there are other grasses that don't require near the input. Forgot who said it but you have to find an unfair advantage to make money raising cattle. To this, I'd like to add if you find one its best to keep your mouth shut about it or it won't be yours for long. Cattle will eat all you can afford to feed them. Key seems to be the ability to recognize the point of diminishing returns.