The "GOLDEN EGG" - Feed Efficiency??

[DOC HARRIS]

Over time, on these pages, there have been discussions, comments, debates, logical and IL-logical analyses of our beef cattle breeds and their respective qualities, values and potential profit-making characteristics and abilities - aimed and directed almost exclusively toward the superiority of a specific or particular BREED. I think that there is little question that human beings have biased prejudices and preferences regarding their possessions - cars, trucks, clothing, entertainment choices, -- why, - - even political choices seem to stir the juices of everyone at one time or another...even selection of ..spouses.. enters into the mix on occasion! But with beef cattle Breeds, the particular BREED that one elects to direct their attention toward - and raise - seems to elicit more emotion and actual visceral responses than almost any other subject in the business!

I understand the feelings involved in espousing and supporting one's favorite breed of cattle - BUT - the justification for such fervent arguments should be founded on FACTS, PROOF, AND LEGITIMACY - not just on past experiences and narrow-minded obstinancy. In support of my opinions here, I refer you all to the last two paragraphs of an article appearing currently on the Front Page of CattleToday titled, "Feed Efficiency Adds Value to Cattle's Production Cycle" by Clifford Mitchell.

"As time goes on, producers are going to have to look for a combination of genetics that will bring the most value. We have to figure out which cattle are more efficient," Dorn says. "The perfect carcass in the market place is a yield grade 1, Prime that weighs 999 pounds. The question is was he efficient to get there. Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient. Efficient cattle in the feedyard will also be efficient cattle at the ranch. Do we want to be old school and sit at the coffee shop bragging about our cattle or do we want to make money? Once technology catches up, we can make accurate decisions and find combinations that work."


"It's no easy task to put together the right genetic profile that is profitable, but we cannot afford to give up heterosis. There is no doubt, in my mind, it will take multiple breeds," Field says. "The industry would be well served to take an aggressive stance, rather than a passive one, for feed efficiency. It is a tremendous challenge to find balanced solutions for profitability and it will take a concentrated effort."


The last paragraph is of particular interest to me - that is relating to the comments by Dr. Tom Field of Colorado State University wherein he states ". . . . .we cannot afford to give up heterosis. There is no doubt in my mind, it will take multiple breeds."

In My Opinion, this entire BU$INE$$ of Beef Cattle Production hinges on FEED EFFICIENCY enhanced by Genetic influences using multiple breeds of cattle - of the HIGHEST phenotype, genotype and fundamental traits available, both now and in the future...and ...how is that desirable situation to be attained and re-tained?

By "Intelligent Crossbreeding"!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Wewild]

The last paragraph is of particular interest to me - that is relating to the comments by Dr. Tom Field of Colorado State University wherein he states ". . . . .we cannot afford to give up heterosis. There is no doubt in my mind, it will take multiple breeds."

In My Opinion, this entire BU$INE$$ of Beef Cattle Production hinges on FEED EFFICIENCY enhanced by Genetic influences using multiple breeds of cattle - of the HIGHEST phenotype, genotype and fundamental traits available, both now and in the future...and ...how is that desirable situation to be attained and re-tained?

By "Intelligent Crossbreeding"!

DOC HARRIS

The way we produce chickens and hogs or milk?

Good post.

 

[Frankie]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

 

[Sage]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

I agree with this as a general statement. Higher marbling cattle are generally less effecient putting pounds on. If you study feed reports that show RFI (realtive feed index) I think you will agree also. The leaner, less marbling animals are more effecient gainers.

I think going to extremes on effeciency will show a negative influence on carcass traits. Keep looking for the perfect effecient animal that grades well and market it good you will definatly be on the right track.

Frankie - the RFI compares feed intake to lbs gained so animals can be accuratly compared within a group that is fed on a consistant ration not just high number gains.

take for instance two equal weight calves(say about 500lb), one that gains 3lb/day and consumes 12lb feed/day and one that gains 4lb/day and consumes 18lb of feed/day.

 

[MikeC]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

A blind hog can find an acorn now and then too. :roll:

Show us a "High Marbling" Angus that gained 6 lbs. per day please? :lol:

Remember, it takes much more energy to put on a pound of fat than it does lean meat. Some research says up to six times as much. When you go from a 2% marbled animal to a 8%-10% marbled animal, that's a lot of fat.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I understand the feelings involved in espousing and supporting one's favorite breed of cattle - BUT - the justification for such fervent arguments should be founded on FACTS, PROOF, AND LEGITIMACY - not just on past experiences and narrow-minded obstinancy. In support of my opinions here, I refer you all to the last two paragraphs of an article appearing currently on the Front Page of CattleToday titled, "Feed Efficiency Adds Value to Cattle's Production Cycle" by Clifford Mitchell.

Doc you confuse me with this paragraph. Some breeds just don't cut it in this climate. Some breeds thrive. Some of the thriving breeds have bad apples that have to be culled.

A person could spend his whole life experimenting. Some summers are not as harsh as others nor are the winters; something that worked out last year may not do as well this year - or it could be better.

I prefer to bet on sure things. When something isn't broke, there is no need to try to fix it. When something works year after year for you, stick with it. Therre is no harm in keeping your eyes peeled for something better.

On the experience thing, when you have tried several varieties of clover and wheat on your pastures, you come to recognize what does well on which farm or in which field. You also know what works in any of your fields.

Experience may have indeed made me biased. I am not scared to try a new clover or other cover variety small scale to see how it does, but I am not about to throw out the baby with the bath water just because a salesman thinks he has developed the perfect breed in some other climate.

 

[dun]

For the commercail producer intelligent crossbreeding is a positive, but we still need the seedstock producers to give us the raw material to work with.

 

[ROB]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

there are a lot of bulls that can gain 4-6 lbs / day on feed, of various breeds - but how much feed was consumed by those animals to get that gain? bull 'A' and bull 'B' having the same ADG, (along with IMF & YG) doesn't necessarily make them equal. RFI testing differentiates those animals and for that matter particular bloodlines. At the Green Springs Bull Test and national Braunvieh Sale recently held -it was interesting to see results of various genetics competing head-to-head on an equal basis. One location, same feed, etc. from the results of the RFI data you could see a consistency in performance concerning feed intake through the various bloodlines. although ADG may have varied to some degree, the RFI values were pretty uniform within bloodlines. RFI testing coupled with ultrasound will allow us to find those few animals that have great IMF and superior RFI.

ROB

 

[Frankie]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

I agree with this as a general statement. Higher marbling cattle are generally less effecient putting pounds on. If you study feed reports that show RFI (realtive feed index) I think you will agree also. The leaner, less marbling animals are more effecient gainers.

I think going to extremes on effeciency will show a negative influence on carcass traits. Keep looking for the perfect effecient animal that grades well and market it good you will definatly be on the right track.

Frankie - the RFI compares feed intake to lbs gained so animals can be accuratly compared within a group that is fed on a consistant ration not just high number gains.

take for instance two equal weight calves(say about 500lb), one that gains 3lb/day and consumes 12lb feed/day and one that gains 4lb/day and consumes 18lb of feed/day.

Thank you, Sage, for the lecture on RFI. We've been performance testing Angus bulls for probably more than 15 years. Feedlot efficiency is something I'm very aware of and pay a lot of attention to.

In 2006, the high RFI bull on the Auburn Bull Test was not an Angus, but he marbled well, especially for the breed. The second high RFI bull WAS an Angus: Lot #116 has a 16.6 REA, 5.03% IMF, .45 BF. 5.03 IMF on a bull would equate to about 7 on a steer. That's high marbling. I don't find the report on that test still on the Auburn site. Maybe Mike would like to share it with the board?

For a long time, I watched Angus bulls on test gaining 4-5-6 lbs a day while feedlot steers averaged 3-3.5 lbs per day. It made no sense to me that heterosis would affect ADG. I asked some smart people at the Noble Foundation. They either didn't know or assured me that heterosis did, indeed, affect feedlot efficiency. But none of them ever followed through with any research data to confirm their assurances. I didn't argue. They're smart, educated people. It's their job to know this stuff. Then one day I found this from Oklahoma State University

Several well-designed research studies have been conducted to estimate heterosis for various economically important traits. The average estimates of heterosis for some of the traits are presented in Table 1. Not all traits exhibit the same degree of heterosis. Generally, the greatest benefit from heterosis is realized for traits with low heritability, like reproductive performance of the cow and livability of the calf. Highly heritable traits like feed efficiency and carcass quality exhibit little or no heterosis. This same general pattern would be expected for all breed crosses even though the actual amount of heterosis for a particular trait may vary some from one breed cross to another.

Granted, this is older research and if someone has newer information from a reliable source, I'd be interested in reading it. But until then, my opinion is based on observations of lots and lots of bull test results and this from OSU.

Link: http://pods.dasnr.okstate.edu/docushare ... 150web.pdf

 

[MikeC]

The U.S. producer has been breeding for "Feed Efficiency" for many years now without knowing it, by using sires that gain well in bull tests.

Problem is that many have used this as a single trait selection.

We could stop the madness in just a couple of generations in cattle if we could stop the small (and some larger) breeders from buying unknown genetics at the cheapest price available.

I cringe every time I see someone buy a cull bull at the salebarn for breeding purposes.

 

[Frankie]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

there are a lot of bulls that can gain 4-6 lbs / day on feed, of various breeds - but how much feed was consumed by those animals to get that gain? bull 'A' and bull 'B' having the same ADG, (along with IMF & YG) doesn't necessarily make them equal. RFI testing differentiates those animals and for that matter particular bloodlines. At the Green Springs Bull Test and national Braunvieh Sale recently held -it was interesting to see results of various genetics competing head-to-head on an equal basis. One location, same feed, etc. from the results of the RFI data you could see a consistency in performance concerning feed intake through the various bloodlines. although ADG may have varied to some degree, the RFI values were pretty uniform within bloodlines. RFI testing coupled with ultrasound will allow us to find those few animals that have great IMF and superior RFI.

ROB

Well, I wouldn't say "lots" of bulls can gain 6 lbs per day on feed. I've seen "lots" of Angus bulls do it, but only know of one other breed doing it at our test station. A Brangus bull gained 6 lbs one year. That doesn't mean another breed hasn't had a 6 lb gainer; I have to admit that I don't read all the other breed test reports.

But I do agree that the industry needs more performance tested bulls working in pastures across the country. Testing bulls is expensive. RFI testing is even more expensive. Breeders simply aren't going to shell out the bucks for testing if they can't get paid for it. The cost of feed is hurting bull testing station participation.

 

[Frankie]

Higher marbling cattle, typically, are less efficient.

I don't think so. While I'd agree that some breeds that marble, Jersey, Wagyu, are less efficient in the feedlot, I don't believe you can make such a blanket statement and be accurate. I can certainly point you to high marbling Angus bulls that "typically" gain 4-6 lbs a day on feed.

A blind hog can find an acorn now and then too. :roll:

Show us a "High Marbling" Angus that gained 6 lbs. per day please? :lol:

Remember, it takes much more energy to put on a pound of fat than it does lean meat. Some research says up to six times as much. When you go from a 2% marbled animal to a 8%-10% marbled animal, that's a lot of fat.

You're getting smarter, Mike. Asking for specifics now, not just general questions. I've taught you well. Here's a link to the latest OBI test report. Several bulls gained 6+ pounds per day. Below that is the link to the ultrasound report on the same test. Bull 7323 gained 6.30 lbs per day. That's on a 112 day test, not 84. He also has a marbling score of 4.19, about 6 if he was a steer. That's certainly above average for marbling. Go ahead and argue about what's "high" and what's not, but the bulls are there, in the Angus breed, to gain well in the feedlot and marble. As Rod says, it's up to the producers whether they want to pay for them or not.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/exten/OBI/files/A74.pdf
http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/exten/OBI/files/A74_US.pdf

 

[Badlands]

Are we talking about efficiency or gain? Correlated traits, but not perfectly correlated. Only about 15% of the variation in FE is explained by gain.

FE is only the border between being moderately to highly heritable, so it is on the border between having moderate to low heterosis. However, crossbred cows will be more productive under range conditions, so the crossbred cow boosts net system efficiency via her improved reproductive performance, even if her crossbred progeny doesn't have a high level of heterosis for FE in the feedlot.

British cattle are more efficient to a fat-based endpoint, Continental cattle are more efficient to a pounds/retail product endpoint. The 50/50 mix can be finished to either endpoint, so they are more flexible.

How to you compare bull test numbers across herds? How to you account for the "pick" of one ranch versus another? How do you know if an RFI of -1.5 is worse than an RFI of -2.0 if the bulls came from different states but are in the same test?

Badlands

 

[backhoeboogie]

Are we talking about efficiency or gain? Correlated traits, but not perfectly correlated. Only about 15% of the variation in FE is explained by gain.

Badlands

Badlands, I think some aren't really talking at all but rather playing games. A very wise man once told me that if you are going to have to play, play to win. There will always be folks peddling snake oil and there will always be caring folks giving good advice. Some times it takes me too long to sort out which are which.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie wrote: Several bulls gained 6+ pounds per day. Below that is the link to the ultrasound report on the same test. Bull 7323 gained 6.30 lbs per day. That's on a 112 day test, not 84. He also has a marbling score of 4.19, about 6 if he was a steer. That's certainly above average for marbling.

4.19% marbling equals "Low Choice" or as the USDA grades go...."Small" amount of marbling.
:roll: :roll:

Come on, you promised us a "High Marbling" Angus that typically gains 6 lbs per day. :cry2:

 

[Frankie]

Frankie wrote: Several bulls gained 6+ pounds per day. Below that is the link to the ultrasound report on the same test. Bull 7323 gained 6.30 lbs per day. That's on a 112 day test, not 84. He also has a marbling score of 4.19, about 6 if he was a steer. That's certainly above average for marbling.

4.19% marbling equals "Low Choice" or as the USDA grades go...."Small" amount of marbling.
:roll: :roll:

Come on, you promised us a "High Marbling" Angus that typically gains 6 lbs per day. :cry2:

I didn't promise anything. 6 lbs ADG is not "typical", but we're seeing it more often. I well remember the first six pound gainer that I saw at OBI and it's not unusual anymore. There were at least three on the test I linked to.

4.19 is this BULL's IMF. If he had been a steer, he'd probably been a 6. What's that equate to?

 

[EAT BEEF]

I can't think of one good reason why a comm. operation would not want to take advantage of hybrid vigor?
A bunch of folks just outcross so much with in the same breed they don't know what they have(bulls that don't breed true) and take advantage of a lower form of hybrid vigor.

 

[MikeC]

Frankie wrote: Several bulls gained 6+ pounds per day. Below that is the link to the ultrasound report on the same test. Bull 7323 gained 6.30 lbs per day. That's on a 112 day test, not 84. He also has a marbling score of 4.19, about 6 if he was a steer. That's certainly above average for marbling.

4.19% marbling equals "Low Choice" or as the USDA grades go...."Small" amount of marbling.
:roll: :roll:

Come on, you promised us a "High Marbling" Angus that typically gains 6 lbs per day. :cry2:

I didn't promise anything. 6 lbs ADG is not "typical", but we're seeing it more often. I well remember the first six pound gainer that I saw at OBI and it's not unusual anymore. There were at least three on the test I linked to.

4.19 is this BULL's IMF. If he had been a steer, he'd probably been a 6. What's that equate to?

A "6" would be "AVERAGE" Choice, or a "Modest" (according to USDA Beef Grading Standards) amount of marbling. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What?????? Still no Angus that gained 6 lbs and was "High" marbling? :lol: :lol:

 

[ALACOWMAN]

• >>>I can't think of one good reason why a comm. operation would not want to take advantage of hybrid vigor?<<<

A bunch of folks just outcross so much with in the same breed they don't know what they have(bulls that don't breed true) and take advantage of a lower form of hybrid vigor.

I'll agree with that.. but the second part is a head scracther. what do you mean by bulls that dont breed true?

 

[Jovid]

• >>>I can't think of one good reason why a comm. operation would not want to take advantage of hybrid vigor?<<<

A bunch of folks just outcross so much with in the same breed they don't know what they have(bulls that don't breed true) and take advantage of a lower form of hybrid vigor.

I'll agree with that.. but the second part is a head scracther. what do you mean by bulls that dont breed true?

My guess is the EAT Beef is referring to the lack of consistent genetics from the bulls do to lack of purity in some of the breeds. You don't get hybrid vigor and genetic consistency from breeds that have added other breeds to the their cattle ultimately making them crossbreeds.