The bulls we will be using on the 150 Braford and f1 Brafiord cows.

[Warren Allison]

A little background first. This breeder I have known for years, He raises outstanding Brangus on a place here in north GA, Has a couple of champion bulls that people buy semen from, and several high-dollar cows she flushes. In recent years, he has produced some great Ultra black bulls as well, using top Angus sires in the country.

He also has about 1200 acres in middle Ga, south of I-16, where he keeps a herd of about 200 purebred Brangus cows..and about 150 registered Brahma cows. With these, he has been custom raising (I guess you'd call it) replacement heifers for people on contract. He produces mostly fI Braford and f! Black Braford heifers with the Brahmas, He AI's with sexed semen to get a high percentage of heifers. I think someone told me you can get about 80% accuracy with sexed semen, So if you wanted 20 heifers, he'd AI about 25-30 of the cows. You pay a deposit per heifer you order,and pay the rest when the calf is 6 mos old. He mostly produces black baldy heifers from the Brangus cows. Same deal..AI's them with Hereford or Black Hereford sexed semen. The few Braford or baldy steers he gets when he does this, always sell well.

A few years ago, he AI'd about 50 of the Brama cows with sexed Chi-Angus semen, and about 50 with sexed homo for black and polled, Simmental semen. He then bred the f1 Black Simbrah to Chi-Angus bulls, and the f1 Ch-Ang x Brahmas to the Black Simm bulls. Both of these c rosses produce excellent cows. They end up with about as much ear and leather as a Brangus. And the steers grow so fast you can almost see it day to day. All of this is good. Great even. But, he left some of the calves bulls. Not something I would use for breeding at all. He has been breeding some the ½ Simm.1/4 Br 1/4 Chiangus cows to the ½ ChiAng, ¼ Br ¼ Simmm bulls and vice versa., to create I guess his own 1/4Brahma, 3/8 ChiAngus, 3/8ths Black Simm composite breed. They made decent enough cows. But I don't see the advantage in them over the f2 cows. A little less ear and leather maybe, but don't see as how this brings any more hybrid vigor than the f2 cross did. AND he has left some of those calves bulls, and wants to send us 2 of them for our 150 Braford and f1 Hereford/Brahmas!. .

He has done the same thing with some of his Brangus herd. He bred about 50 to Chi-Angus and 50 to homo polled black Simmental bulls. Got sort of a Mega or Super Ultrablack cow, which sells very well, And those steers always top the sales He then bred the f1 Brangus/Chi-Angus cows back to the Black Simm bulls, and the Brangus/Black Simms back to the Chi-Angus bulls. And THESE made hellacious cows.. very little trace of ear or leather now. He can sell the heifers ahead of time like he does his f1Brafords. And the steers out grow and out sell the f1s. BUT...he left some of those bull calves intact, and is doing the same thing, creating a 1/4Brangus/3/8black Simm/3/8 Chi-Angus composite "breed". Again, don't see any improvement over the f2 cows, and would NOT want to buy a bull like this for breeding. He is sending us 2 of those!

Now for the kicker..he breeding the Brahma influenced composites with the Brangus influenced composites, for God;s sakes! And he is sending 2 of THOSE mutt bulls to us! Well, not my cows, not my circus and not my monkeys!! Well, free bulls and the man has signed an agreement to pay $900 for every heifer calf as soon as it is born and pick them up at 6 mos old. And I suppose the black baldy steers my client gets will sell as well as any other at 6 mos old. Just probably won't be as big as the ones we would have got from the Brangus or Ultrablack bulls I was recommending.

So, opinions please?

 

[coachg]

Sounds like he has some more operation. That Chi influence will definitely put some frame on them ! My dad and I owned a registered Polled Shorthorn bull with a fellow from Knoxville. He was crossing Chianina on his shorthorn cows and selling 4H calves , steers and heifers . He had a Chi/ shorthorn bull that stood 6 ft at the shoulder.

 

[Travlr]

A little background first. This breeder I have known for years, He raises outstanding Brangus on a place here in north GA, Has a couple of champion bulls that people buy semen from, and several high-dollar cows she flushes. In recent years, he has produced some great Ultra black bulls as well, using top Angus sires in the country.

He also has about 1200 acres in middle Ga, south of I-16, where he keeps a herd of about 200 purebred Brangus cows..and about 150 registered Brahma cows. With these, he has been custom raising (I guess you'd call it) replacement heifers for people on contract. He produces mostly fI Braford and f! Black Braford heifers with the Brahmas, He AI's with sexed semen to get a high percentage of heifers. I think someone told me you can get about 80% accuracy with sexed semen, So if you wanted 20 heifers, he'd AI about 25-30 of the cows. You pay a deposit per heifer you order,and pay the rest when the calf is 6 mos old. He mostly produces black baldy heifers from the Brangus cows. Same deal..AI's them with Hereford or Black Hereford sexed semen. The few Braford or baldy steers he gets when he does this, always sell well.

A few years ago, he AI'd about 50 of the Brama cows with sexed Chi-Angus semen, and about 50 with sexed homo for black and polled, Simmental semen. He then bred the f1 Black Simbrah to Chi-Angus bulls, and the f1 Ch-Ang x Brahmas to the Black Simm bulls. Both of these c rosses produce excellent cows. They end up with about as much ear and leather as a Brangus. And the steers grow so fast you can almost see it day to day. All of this is good. Great even. But, he left some of the calves bulls. Not something I would use for breeding at all. He has been breeding some the ½ Simm.1/4 Br 1/4 Chiangus cows to the ½ ChiAng, ¼ Br ¼ Simmm bulls and vice versa., to create I guess his own 1/4Brahma, 3/8 ChiAngus, 3/8ths Black Simm composite breed. They made decent enough cows. But I don't see the advantage in them over the f2 cows. A little less ear and leather maybe, but don't see as how this brings any more hybrid vigor than the f2 cross did. AND he has left some of those calves bulls, and wants to send us 2 of them for our 150 Braford and f1 Hereford/Brahmas!. .

He has done the same thing with some of his Brangus herd. He bred about 50 to Chi-Angus and 50 to homo polled black Simmental bulls. Got sort of a Mega or Super Ultrablack cow, which sells very well, And those steers always top the sales He then bred the f1 Brangus/Chi-Angus cows back to the Black Simm bulls, and the Brangus/Black Simms back to the Chi-Angus bulls. And THESE made hellacious cows.. very little trace of ear or leather now. He can sell the heifers ahead of time like he does his f1Brafords. And the steers out grow and out sell the f1s. BUT...he left some of those bull calves intact, and is doing the same thing, creating a 1/4Brangus/3/8black Simm/3/8 Chi-Angus composite "breed". Again, don't see any improvement over the f2 cows, and would NOT want to buy a bull like this for breeding. He is sending us 2 of those!

Now for the kicker..he breeding the Brahma influenced composites with the Brangus influenced composites, for God;s sakes! And he is sending 2 of THOSE mutt bulls to us! Well, not my cows, not my circus and not my monkeys!! Well, free bulls and the man has signed an agreement to pay $900 for every heifer calf as soon as it is born and pick them up at 6 mos old. And I suppose the black baldy steers my client gets will sell as well as any other at 6 mos old. Just probably won't be as big as the ones we would have got from the Brangus or Ultrablack bulls I was recommending.

So, opinions please?

As you said, free bulls and not your monkeys or circus. The trick is to get mostly heifer calves at nine hundred apiece unless you think steers will sell for more.

Do you?

I can offer a few tricks to influence your gender percentages in the field using bulls.

 

[Warren Allison]

Sounds like he has some more operation. That Chi influence will definitely put some frame on them ! My dad and I owned a registered Polled Shorthorn bull with a fellow from Knoxville. He was crossing Chianina on his shorthorn cows and selling 4H calves , steers and heifers . He had a Chi/ shorthorn bull that stood 6 ft at the shoulder.

The 1/2 Chi-Angus f1s of both groups are bigger cows and bigger steers than the 1/2 black Simm F1s. Not a lot of difference in the f2s. Not quite as big as the f1 Chis, and a little bigger than the f1 black Simms.

 

[Warren Allison]

As you said, free bulls and not your monkeys or circus. The trick is to get mostly heifer calves at nine hundred apiece unless you think steers will sell for more.

Do you?

I can offer a few tricks to influence your gender percentages in the field using bulls.

It will be hard to say what they will bring Sept of 2023. Right now, today, they would bring close to $2 a pound. Maybe a little less, because at 6 months they gonna weigh 600 or better. Heifers less per pound, of course. When I bring the bulls in May, we are gonna but the cows in 6 pastures of 25 each, And add an ear tag for whatever bull it is Bull number 1 through bull number 6. And will tag the calves next sporing accordingly, so the dude can see which of his bulls did the best. My client was gonna spend up to $37,500 on for bulls, and I doubt using these will hurt him $37k, if any, on selling the 1st batch of calves. What puzzles me is the breeder passing up a $E35-$40 k sale. and GIVING us bulls instead, Well, loaning, not giving.

 

[Travlr]

It will be hard to say what they will bring Sept of 2023. Right now, today, they would bring close to $2 a pound. Maybe a little less, because at 6 months they gonna weigh 600 or better. Heifers less per pound, of course. When I bring the bulls in May, we are gonna but the cows in 6 pastures of 25 each, And add an ear tag for whatever bull it is Bull number 1 through bull number 6. And will tag the calves next sporing accordingly, so the dude can see which of his bulls did the best. My client was gonna spend up to $37,500 on for bulls, and I doubt using these will hurt him $37k, if any, on selling the 1st batch of calves. What puzzles me is the breeder passing up a $E35-$40 k sale. and GIVING us bulls instead, Well, loaning, not giving.

I've worked with people that would fall in **** and come up holding a gold nugget. This guy may be one of those. It sounds like he spent the money for superior seed stock and people like what he is producing. I did the same using crossbred heifers from Peterson Industries back in the eighties. And you wouldn't believe me if I told you about some of the numbers we generated with crosses.

If you think the calves will be worth 2$ a pound crossing the scales at 600# and he is locked in to only $900 for every heifer produced you would do much better if you got more bull calves.

Any interest at all in knowing how to get more bulls?

 

[Warren Allison]

I've worked with people that would fall in **** and come up holding a gold nugget. This guy may be one of those. It sounds like he spent the money for superior seed stock and people like what he is producing. I did the same using crossbred heifers from Peterson Industries back in the eighties. And you wouldn't believe me if I told you about some of the numbers we generated with crosses.

If you think the calves will be worth 2$ a pound crossing the scales at 600# and he is locked in to only $900 for every heifer produced you would do much better if you got more bull calves.

Any interest at all in knowing how to get more bulls?

Steer calves, maybe. Heifers won't bring as much or be quite as heavy. Plus, my client gets paid the money when the heifer is born, so no risk if any die. But yes, Id like to hear how to influence gender pasture breeding.

 

[MurraysMutts]

This thread I useless without pictures....

 

[Travlr]

Steer calves, maybe. Heifers won't bring as much or be quite as heavy. Plus, my client gets paid the money when the heifer is born, so no risk if any die. But yes, Id like to hear how to influence gender pasture breeding.

Gotta have bulls before you can have steers...

Have you ever noticed that some years you will have a bunch of one sex calf and then suddenly every calf is the opposite sex? Ever traced back nine months to figure out when the new grass came on?

Sperm has differing motility and longevity depending on whether it is female or male. Female sperm isn't as fast, but it lasts longer. male is speedier, but loses steam faster. So the trick is to influence the medium the sperm are swimming in as much as possible before breeding. A more acid or base swimming pool, if you will. For more male calves you need to feed more protein and mineral and stay away from high carbs. Both the bull and the cow should be on the same ration. Also, the cow should only be maintaining weight and not gaining. Optimal time to breed is when she is in the midst of her heat cycle.
For females you feed more carbs and less protein or minerals, breed early in the heat cycle, and the cow should be gaining weight for several weeks prior to breeding.

This won't be as sure as sexed semen but it's as good as it gets in pasture breeding. Depending on which sex you are looking for you will get different results. You can expect about 67% with one and just over 70% with the other.

 

[Warren Allison]

This won't be as sure as sexed semen but it's as good as it gets in pasture breeding. Depending on which sex you are looking for you will get different results. You can expect about 67% with one and just over 70% with the other.

Makes sense. And sexed semen won;t be a whole lot more accurate either.

 

[Brute 23]

Free bulls and guaranteed sales is hard to pass up.

Let us know how it goes.

I'm staying BA over F1 Brafords because of what's coming down the pipe on meat quality but for just flat out mashing scales with the good groceries in that area I can see why those bulls would be appealing.

 

[moses388]

I wondered when Travlr was going to spill the beans. He hinted about influencing calf gender in other threads.

 

[Warren Allison]

This thread I useless without pictures....

View attachment 16108

What do you want pics of, Murray? Got some great ones at a bike rally a couple of weeks ago, but don't know if admin will let me post them. I might start a thread " Comparing udder sizes" and see if I can get by with it.

 

[Lazy M]

Very interesting. Does the breeder have a website? I'd like to learn more about this composite he's developing

 

[Warren Allison]

Very interesting. Does the breeder have a website? I'd like to learn more about this composite he's developing

I think he does for his Registered Brangus operation, but it doesn't say anything about his commercial herds and his custom replacement heifer operations on that site. He keeps those 2 entities separate. I will ask him if I can post a link to that site.

He never said he was trying to develope a new composite breed...that was speculation on my part. His number 1 priority with that southern herd is custom-producing f1 Braford heifers with the Brahma cows and f1 Hereford x Brangus black baldy heifers with the Brangus cows. What I think happened...and I will ask him about it in May..is he had a slow year as far as people wanting these custom heifers, so he bred a lot of his Brahma and Brangus cows to Chi-Angus and Black Simm bulls, and kept most of those f1s to experiment with these various percentage crosses. When I went down there in March to get those 3 yr old f1 Black Brafords, they had been bred back to a Black Herford bull. They had 1 month old calves or less on them, and a few calved after we got them home. This leads me to believe either he or a client was toying with developing a Black Braford. They would have kept the 1/4 Br x 3/4 Black Herefords to breed back to 1/2 Br x 1/2 Black Hereford f1s if this were the case. But, he never even mentioned buying those calves back at weaning, so that idea must have been abandoned. It looked to me like all the Brahmas had Hereford and Black Hereford calves, as did all the Brangus when I was down there. I just never thought much about it back then, or I would have asked more questions.

 

[alacowman1]

A black Braford ?whoo boy..run around in circles ,to get something you could get with two parents,plus more heterosis

 

[Warren Allison]

A black Braford ?whoo boy..run around in circles ,to get something you could get with two parents,plus more heterosis

What 2 parents would you use, to get a 5/8ths Hereford 3/8ths Brahma, which is what a Braford is? Or in this case, what 2 would you use to get a 5/8ths Black hereford 3/8ths Brahma, which is what a Black Braford would be? It took at least 4 generations to get the stable, new composite breed, when Brangus, Braford, Santa Gertrudis, etc were developed. You breed your Bos Taurus to a Brahma..f1. Then you breed the f1s back to the Bos taurus, and get 3/4ths bos taurus and 1/4 brahma f2s. Then you cross the f1s and f2s to get the 5/8ths/3/8ths composite... f3. You then breed the f3s to each other for a generation or 2. Someone posted on this board.... either Caustic or Brute... that it takes 7 generations to get the new breed with its own genetics.

 

[sim.-ang.king]

I wondered when Travlr was going to spill the beans. He hinted about influencing calf gender in other threads.

For $95.96 I'll send you a book on how to get what gender of calf you want. It has been proven to be 100% accurate, 50% of the time!

 

[alacowman1]

What 2 parents would you use, to get a 5/8ths Hereford 3/8ths Brahma, which is what a Braford is? Or in this case, what 2 would you use to get a 5/8ths Black hereford 3/8ths Brahma, which is what a Black Braford would be? It took at least 4 generations to get the stable, new composite breed, when Brangus, Braford, Santa Gertrudis, etc were developed. You breed your Bos Taurus to a Brahma..f1. Then you breed the f1s back to the Bos taurus, and get 3/4ths bos taurus and 1/4 brahma f2s. Then you cross the f1s and f2s to get the 5/8ths/3/8ths composite... f3. You then breed the f3s to each other for a generation or 2. Someone posted on this board.... either Caustic or Brute... that it takes 7 generations to get the new breed with its own genetics.

I would just cut all that back and forth ,over a under out ,and go with the old proven way.. Brangus X Hereford...with the right parents you can develope some as good as anything you could by chasing rabbits .. And use what ever percentage you prefer on the parents..the only braging rights on the others is just paper work..

 

[Warren Allison]

I would just cut all that back and forth ,over a under out ,and go with the old proven way.. Brangus X Hereford...with the right parents you can develope some as good as anything you could by chasing rabbits .. And use what ever percentage you prefer on the parents..the only braging rights on the others is just paper work..

Uhhhh. not even using this "new math" they are teaching my grand kids, can you get a Braford....5/8ths Hereford and 3/8ths Brahma genetics..... from a Brangus x Hereford cross. The resulting cross bred black baldy would be 50% Brangus and 50% Hereford, Good luck getting that registered as a Braford! LOL. Yeah, you will get a pretty good baldy calf, but that is NOT the proven cross. Unless I was married to a vet, no way in hell would I fool with a herd of red Hereford cows. For that cross, most people would do Hereford x Brangus....Hereford bull on Brangus cows. That would be a more "proven" way. Even better is like @Brute 23 and others on here do it...Black Angus bull on f1 Hereford x Brahma cows.