Sustainable Agriculture?

[Lucky]

I'm with @Brute 23 on the Cake but no recipe. @Travlr seems to give the best real world and logical instances and results. To me it seems like Regenerative Farming is a fancy term that people like to use as buzz word to get attention. Every video I watch is really good but after I watch it I'm left wondering what to do. We used to call moving cattle and taking care of pastures being Good Stewards of the land but I guess that's not a buzz worthy word anymore.

 

[50/50Farms]

I think the bigger takeaway from the regenerative ranching thing is getting people to think deeper than just what they see on pastures and getting people to thing more in terms of pounds per acre.

 

[kenny thomas]

My biggest advice is to do something each year even if it's not by the book. Every little thing you do will improve it for the future. Do a little more each year and before you know it you have something much better.

 

[Lucky]

I think the bigger takeaway from the regenerative ranching thing is getting people to think deeper than just what they see on pastures and getting people to thing more in terms of pounds per acre.

That's a big one I don't get either. Pounds per acre or head per acre what's the difference? Whatever you are running weighs "x" amount and takes up "x" amount of space. The better the ground the more you run.

I did watch a video on a guy that trained his cattle to graze in groups like Buffalo. He didn't actually train them like you would a dog though. He ran cattle by moving electric fence everday. By keeping replacements for years he ended up with cattle that grazed like they were raised too. Kinda cool I thought.

It's all good and I'm not knocking any ones ideas. I've got a good friend that's ranched his entire life it's all he's ever done. He has been trying the regenerative thing the last few years with good results. From what I see he's just watching the grass and moving the herd though.

 

[50/50Farms]

That's a big one I don't get either. Pounds per acre or head per acre what's the difference? Whatever you are running weighs "x" amount and takes up "x" amount of space. The better the ground the more you run.

I did watch a video on a guy that trained his cattle to graze in groups like Buffalo. He didn't actually train them like you would a dog though. He ran cattle by moving electric fence everday. By keeping replacements for years he ended up with cattle that grazed like they were raised too. Kinda cool I thought.

It's all good and I'm not knocking any ones ideas. I've got a good friend that's ranched his entire life it's all he's ever done. He has been trying the regenerative thing the last few years with good results. From what I see he's just watching the grass and moving the herd though.

Because two 1,600 pound cows aren't going to reliably produce two calves worth more than three calves from three 1,100 cows if you're running commercials to sell at weaning weight.

 

[RDFF]

I have seen some negative effects of rotating often. If you have a variety of grass, basically the cattle pick the best grass and get moved. Long term it gives the not so great grasses time to take over.

We have been trying a different approach of basically eating a pasture down lower than most would suggest. Not dirt low or any where near that, but low enough the cattle go after every thing before we move them.

The key is they may only be in that pasture once... maybe twice a year.

Each pasture may get grazed 60, 90, 120 days. A brushy pasture may get grazed in July and Aug for the shade and the more open pastures in the spring or fall. Then a smaller pasture gets used in Jan a Feb since it's a short period and we will be winter feeding any ways. Plus, bulls can get a start on them in a smaller area.

It's hard to say definitely but it seems to work better. Plus, we can align rotating with calving, breeding, weaning, etc.

Anytime you leave the animals on a pasture for more than about 3 days (the longer this graze period, the more pronounced will be the impact), they will tend to selectively come back to regraze (take a second bite) on plants that they've already taken the "first bite" off of, as they recover... and will then tend to selectively LEAVE those less desirable, more mature and more lignified plants. A 60, 90, or 120 day grazing period on a pasture will then result in more "selective grazing"... with animals choosing to eat the most desirable plants and bypassing the less desirable ones. If a manager were to instead crowd them down so that they only have enough forage (when taken down to the most desirable level) for one or two days BY TAKING JUST THE TOPS OF ALL THE PLANTS, they WILL learn to graze much less selectively. They know that tomorrow, you'll be giving them a fresh ungrazed forage area again, so they will learn to take all the tips first and thereby be satisfied, with each day's move. A 12 hour interval could be even still more effective... but of course you have to manage the cost/benefit, taking into consideration the labor requirement of this more rigorous strategy.

What I hear you saying Brute, is that you feel there is a better "cost/benefit" ratio to a strategy that uses longer graze periods followed by much longer rest periods, than had been employed in the "rotating often" scenario you described. Regardless of the length of graze, MOST managers tend to not allow enough/under value the importance of REST.

 

[wbvs58]

I don't think there is one recipe that fits all situations, as Travlr suggested you have to observe and adjust things accordingly. I came into this business fairly late in life, 55 yrs of age. It was never my plan to do what I do now, things evolved and I am very happy they turned out this way. When I first bought this place and started running cattle there was very little cross fencing and the paddocks were very run down and did not respond well to rain events. I started cross fencing and splitting things and providing water and started running the cows as one mob and rotating through the paddocks. I did this not by reading the sustainable manual, I don't think the word was invented then, I did it because I thought it was what needed to be done. I've made lots of expensive mistakes along the way but things evolved and I am now proud of the results I have achieved. My soil is very light and once things dry out hooves will do a lot of damage to areas with thin grass coverage. My big trump card is my old tin mine, it is around 650 acres of scrub country right next door to my home block, I leased it at first but now own it. When things go belly up and I feel I can't graze my paddocks any more without doing damage I put them into the tin mine, they always find something to chew on in there and if need be I can supplement with a bit of grain and protein meal.
I think the big thing is to have options, somewhere to put them when things are bad so they don't do damage to your pastures. I've worked hard developing the herd I have now and certainly don't want to be forced into selling them in bad times.
The cows are in the tin mine now, calves were weaned at the end of Feb and they will be in there until the end of June when they come home to calve on stockpiled pastures. It is Autumn here now. Our toughest time is spring when the stockpiled grasses seem to disintegrate and we are waiting for the first storms usually the end of October.

Ken

 

[Travlr]

Anytime you leave the animals on a pasture for more than about 3 days (the longer this graze period, the more pronounced will be the impact), they will tend to selectively come back to regraze (take a second bite) on plants that they've already taken the "first bite" off of, as they recover... and will then tend to selectively LEAVE those less desirable, more mature and more lignified plants. A 60, 90, or 120 day grazing period on a pasture will then result in more "selective grazing"... with animals choosing to eat the most desirable plants and bypassing the less desirable ones. If a manager were to instead crowd them down so that they only have enough forage (when taken down to the most desirable level) for one or two days BY TAKING JUST THE TOPS OF ALL THE PLANTS, they WILL learn to graze much less selectively. They know that tomorrow, you'll be giving them a fresh ungrazed forage area again, so they will learn to take all the tips first and thereby be satisfied, with each day's move. A 12 hour interval could be even still more effective... but of course you have to manage the cost/benefit, taking into consideration the labor requirement of this more rigorous strategy.

What I hear you saying Brute, is that you feel there is a better "cost/benefit" ratio to a strategy that uses longer graze periods followed by much longer rest periods, than had been employed in the "rotating often" scenario you described. Regardless of the length of graze, MOST managers tend to not allow enough/under value the importance of REST.

Three days is unrealistic... and I think you are misunderstanding how conditions dictate time and value. And there are trade-offs. Labor and fencing factor into this too. Someone in NW Arkansas where a cow/calf unit will get fat on an acre is going to have different strategies than someone in a more arid climate where it takes several acres per unit. The size of the pasture may dictate shorter or longer grazing times.

I'm somewhere between both of you as far as my own experience goes. 3 days is far too short and 60 days is longer than I would ever expect to have animals on a single pasture. In my own experience the cows would tell me when to move them. Watching them and how they graze would inform my decisions.

 

[Lucky]

In my own experience the cows would tell me when to move them. Watching them and how they graze would inform my decisions.

This is what I've found when I am able to rotate. Sometimes they'll actually bunch up at the gate to their next pasture. When I was rotating I would go 3-4 weeks on a pasture. I'm set up to rotate again this year so we'll see how it goes.

 

[Brute 23]

When I say cows will be in a pasture 30+ that is not because I chose that time. It's what the pasture dictates. I just know off the top of my head from doing it and looking at the pasture roughly how long they will last.

Moving cows in and out of a pasture is not a huge deal but it is a planned deal. Doing it evey 3 days, or even every 3 weeks will not pay out.

Plus, our rains tens to come in bursts also. We are going from stockpile to stockpile.

 

[RDFF]

As I said, "but of course you have to manage the cost/benefit, taking into consideration the labor requirement of this more rigorous strategy. What I hear you saying Brute, is that you feel there is a better "cost/benefit" ratio to a strategy that uses longer graze periods followed by much longer rest periods, than had been employed in the "rotating often" scenario you described. Regardless of the length of graze, MOST managers tend to not allow enough/under value the importance of REST."

CONTEXT plays a critical role as one of the basic principles of "soil health and ADAPTIVELY managed "multi-paddock" (AMP) grazing". Each manager must decide HOW he will choose to implement those principles on his own operation.

 

[Brute 23]

As I said, "but of course you have to manage the cost/benefit, taking into consideration the labor requirement of this more rigorous strategy. What I hear you saying Brute, is that you feel there is a better "cost/benefit" ratio to a strategy that uses longer graze periods followed by much longer rest periods, than had been employed in the "rotating often" scenario you described. Regardless of the length of graze, MOST managers tend to not allow enough/under value the importance of REST."

CONTEXT plays a critical role as one of the basic principles of "soil health and ADAPTIVELY managed "multi-paddock" (AMP) grazing". Each manager must decide HOW he will choose to implement those principles on his own operation.

Yes. The people I work with have had better luck selling that plan to people in the area. They can stock for dry years and if it's super wet we burn off the excess the first part of the year. Most are managing for wildlife and cattle and it seems to be working.

 

[wbvs58]

Three days is unrealistic... and I think you are misunderstanding how conditions dictate time and value. And there are trade-offs. Labor and fencing factor into this too. Someone in NW Arkansas where a cow/calf unit will get fat on an acre is going to have different strategies than someone in a more arid climate where it takes several acres per unit. The size of the pasture may dictate shorter or longer grazing times.

I'm somewhere between both of you as far as my own experience goes. 3 days is far too short and 60 days is longer than I would ever expect to have animals on a single pasture. In my own experience the cows would tell me when to move them. Watching them and how they graze would inform my decisions.

They are liars Travlr, mine tell big porkies.

Ken

 

[Bob Kinford]

So how do you train a herd to stay together and them not go for the best grass they can find?

I see a lot of cakes but no recipes.

You reboot their herd instinct by changing your stockmanship (as per the free videos on the website) and they do it on their own. Completely changes their behavior including diversifying their diet to seeking out the feed with the highest nutrition.

 

[Farm Family]

He can be a Hurtin Albertan..

Lol all this Albertan can say is I know this "Hurtin Albertan" and I can honestly say Tim's a great guy, a truly down to earth family man and rich where it counts!

 

[Farm Family]

Well, when I'm president I will significantly change zoning laws nationally and you will have to submit in writing what you plan to do with land in certain zones. Developers will only have access to certain types of land and cities will be encouraged to build up and not out. Then we're taking Alberta and Saskatchewan away from Canada.

You think so do you, you sure you want us?

 

[Bob Kinford]

Lots different when grazing 10,000 acres compared to 50 acres. Not much migration on 50. I'm not doubting that it works but 1 cow per 9 acres isn't like 1 cow per acre. Cont compare the results.

I disagree that hot wires are recreational fencing, or that animals on ten thousand acres without cross fencing will make the most of building grass and soil. I also disagree with the idea that cattle need to be rotated in terms of days.

My own experience in rebuilding a ranch after it was ruined by crop agriculture was that a person practicing regenerative practices needs to be flexible and look at what his practices are doing for the ground. Different areas demand different treatment and you will only get the most out of what you have if you are paying attention and changing your strategies to suit your conditions, paying attention to your results and modifying as you go. It's not like following a recipe that results in a perfect cake every time. I had pastures that varied in size. Each had different water demands and each had differing ground cover. I actually paid a lot of attention to my cows and learned to see when they were ready to move. I found that to be the best indicator of timing and the best way to get better forage in succeeding cycles.

Neither size nor matter that much. I spent three years doing it on a mix of abandoned farm ground that had been under pivots and some desert ground. Most of the pivots circles were nothing but tumbleweeds. After three years (two of which were under 5.5" of rain) all of the pivots have some grass, 200 acres of the 1,000 acre desert pasture (which had been bare ground for over 20 years is 90% covered with grasses and forbes. Most of the formerly bare ground under mesquite bushes now has grass growing,. All done without daily moves and small paddocks.

Using herd instinct over multiple paddocks on pivots actually extends the number of grazing days.

 

[50/50Farms]

You think so do you, you sure you want us?

Yes, it will boost our firearms and alcohol sales.

 

[RDFF]

Neither size nor matter that much. I spent three years doing it on a mix of abandoned farm ground that had been under pivots and some desert ground. Most of the pivots circles were nothing but tumbleweeds. After three years (two of which were under 5.5" of rain) all of the pivots have some grass, 200 acres of the 1,000 acre desert pasture (which had been bare ground for over 20 years is 90% covered with grasses and forbes. Most of the formerly bare ground under mesquite bushes now has grass growing,. All done without daily moves and small paddocks.

Using herd instinct over multiple paddocks on pivots actually extends the number of grazing days.

So, if I've got 100 acres of pasture on converted cropland, and I'm going to be running 50 pairs on that 100 acres... and don't have ANY more ground at all, you're suggesting that once the "herd" has learned to stay together AS a herd, that they'll consistently move around that pasture all by themself for the whole season, without anybody having to "make them" stay in a particular area for a specific period of time?

I don't think so, respectfully. We had our dairy heifers on pasture, with ponds (tanks?) in multiple areas around the pasture. They would ALWAYS be together as a "herd"... never spread out as individuals. Probably 150 acres total... and this would be spread out from one end to the other maybe a mile and a half, a fair amount of woods along with the open grass areas. Seldom would be more than 300' between the furthest apart animals. But they would potentially cover that whole thing from one end to the other in any given day.

 

[Farm Family]

Yes, it will boost our firearms and alcohol sales.

Too funny… lol because I hear we make some of the best beer and rye whiskey in the world…your sales will increase with our quality product. As for firearms only cause we would have to restock…our PM aims to take our firearms away with his shady parliamentary bills. Thanks for the comic relief though one wonders how funny the reality is some days