Sustainable Agriculture?

[Rmc]

Well either you said something I don't understand or you don't understand what has been happening in the park if you think open areas are devastated by wolves being reintroduced.

Not what I say it is what research and documentation in Yellowstone says.
Open areas of the park are refilling with woody type plants. Not debating if this is a good or bad thing. Wolf reintroduction caused the elk population to decrease substantially, lower elk reduced the amount of woody plants being eaten. Willows trees ect are now replacing open meadows /areas do to reduced foraging by elk not only due to decreased numbers in the park but also to reduced numbers of elk in groups.

 

[50/50Farms]

Not what I say it is what research and documentation in Yellowstone says.
Open areas of the park are refilling with woody type plants. Not debating if this is a good or bad thing. Wolf reintroduction caused the elk population to decrease substantially, lower elk reduced the amount of woody plants being eaten.

It's also worth noting that when the two aren't co-managed that woody plants will outcompete herbaceous growth in many areas, which means that the whole grazing ecosystem can be thrown out of whack because when the thing that eats the woody plants and the clover is gone, the thing that only eats the clover will soon be running out of food too.

 

[RDFF]

Totally agree... you can control invasiveness of many woody species simply by implementing high/very high stock density grazing for short periods of time, ESPECIALLY if you're willing to leave enough grass height left behind after the graze. If you trim that grass down too short, it will prune the roots of the grasses, and they won't recover nearly as quickly or vigorously.

 

[Rmc]

I always found this interesting.
That and the research that indicates that about 30 percent of a plants roots are replaced each year .if you don't allow the plant to replace the 30 percent of roots each year you are degrading you forage base

 

[RDFF]

Here's a really excellent webinar by Gabe Brown: Adaptive Grazing Webinar: Gabe Brown

 

[Bob Kinford]

The STX brush country use to be a praire too.

We can all romanticise about the old days but we are not going back. We have had some properties in the family for over 100 years. We have seen the evolution. There are things now that generations before us didn't battle. My dad as a kid didn't fight huisatche and hogs. The weather patterns were also very different.

To say some thing will revert back to the old days when factors out of our control have changed is pretty optimistic. I do agree things will heal... but it will never be the same.

I'm not dropping it. If you can make soil that will keep a huisatche out I'm all ears.

Soil fertility is not going to grow grass that will take post oaks back over. You have to clean them out then manage it properly to keep them out.

You made a good post about flexibility and if you read my posts you will see how I manage. I look for the signs the land is giving me not try to shove my will on it. I do the same with people.

The "evolution" you have seen is nothing more than plant succession caused by losing fertility in your soil biology. If you understand it, you can improve it and bring the grasses back. This picture describes the changes a friend of mine has made on his ranch in Mexico.

 

[Brute 23]

The "evolution" you have seen is nothing more than plant succession caused by losing fertility in your soil biology. If you understand it, you can improve it and bring the grasses back. This picture describes the changes a friend of mine has made on his ranch in Mexico.

I don't see huisatche on the list? It doesn't say what was done either?

 

[Lucky]

There's a time and place for everything. We bought 210 acres that was totally over ran with Honey locust and boisdarc trees. I'm talking about you couldn't hardly drive a four wheeler anywhere on the place. No amount of Regenerative Agricultural would have got the place back in shape. We put about 750 hrs on a dozer clearing it off and getting it back into a grazing pasture. Since then we've pretty much rotationally grazed it and that's it. At this point you could say Regenerative Ag is what's bringing the grass back. That scenerio is totally different than buying a barron landscape and using Regenerative techniques to bring the grass back. Every place is different and requires different techniques.

The other half of our place is depleted from cotton farming and I'm guessing has an 18" hardpan that just won't give. I can either attempt to plant grasses and legumes that may break that hard pan and loosen the soil or do it mechanically. Rotating the cattle and keeping the pastures clean has helped but not much. I feel like it needs broken up, fertlized, and grass seed at this point. Then we can move into Regenerative or sustainable agriculture mode.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Totally agree... you can control invasiveness of many woody species simply by implementing high/very high stock density grazing for short periods of time, ESPECIALLY if you're willing to leave enough grass height left behind after the graze. If you trim that grass down too short, it will prune the roots of the grasses, and they won't recover nearly as quickly or vigorously.

You dead on RDFF. Rotational grazing has been a game changer for me. One of the many things I learned is , if you only give cattle what they
can eat in a day and do it day after day they will start eating everything in front of them, weeds and all. I suppose this is true with all ruminants.
I also liked what RMC showed below but the hour being what it is I will just mention that leaving stock on a area long enough to require that.
2nd or 3rd bite will eventually result in a depleted pasture. I remember the first time I saw the grass greening up behind the cattle using
rotational grazing instead of whole field grazing. Rotational grazing has enabled me to go from haying 2 or 3 times per year to just one time.

For the record I will not try to talk anyone into rotational grazing, The color of your cow, hump or ear is your business as is the grass you
eat into the ground or grow to thistle or brush or let grow, I will tell you how much I appreciate the 10 to 20 feet of fill dirt that is in the
bottom of the creek that has eroded off the neighbors corn fields and pastures. Did you realize that 250 bushel corn ground will grow
waist high grass with no fertilizer? I doubt if any of them will ever go to rotational grazing. A lot of them are relatives with 4000 acres
and big red or green tractors and I'm the crazy one who walks around with his cows. They still claim me, I guess it's that blood is thicker
than water thingy..

 

[RDFF]

You dead on RDFF. Rotational grazing has been a game changer for me. One of the many things I learned is , if you only give cattle what they
can eat in a day and do it day after day they will start eating everything in front of them, weeds and all.

Exactly right. That's the whole idea behind "high density mob grazing". IF... the animals have learned that they're going to get moved once they've made that first sweep across the new graze, they'll make a quick MOB RUN across the WHOLE pasture... every plant, and just take the tops on all of it. Once they've done that, it's time to move them on to the next graze. The tops of the plants, the tips of the grass, are where the best, most nutritious, most energy dense part of the plant is. They'll do better on THAT feed, and so will the pasture, if you leave the rest behind them. The pasture will recover much more quickly, and the roots will be driven deeper instead of being pruned. I don't understand why you WOULDN'T want to manage that way... unless you just can't get out there that often.

 

[Rmc]

There's a time and place for everything. We bought 210 acres that was totally over ran with Honey locust and boisdarc trees. I'm talking about you couldn't hardly drive a four wheeler anywhere on the place. No amount of Regenerative Agricultural would have got the place back in shape. We put about 750 hrs on a dozer clearing it off and getting it back into a grazing pasture. Since then we've pretty much rotationally grazed it and that's it. At this point you could say Regenerative Ag is what's bringing the grass back. That scenerio is totally different than buying a barron landscape and using Regenerative techniques to bring the grass back. Every place is different and requires different techniques.

Yes there is a time and place for everything.
We still use chainsaws and equipment to remove juniper trees. But we have found we can make more progress if we don't remove them at the beginning and wait until they are dead/dieing before removing them.
But even the most overgrown tree or brush place can and will benefit from regeneration agriculture techniques.
Sometimes it isn't the quickest or the choice that is made . But I will 100 percent disagree with the statement that no amount of regeneration techniques would drastically improve the areas you describe. I don't think it is always the best choice to make to have everything in open grass land with no trees ect for animals either.
I think one of the easiest ways to remove brush and shrubs is almost always over looked. Horns.
It is amazing the amount of shrubs and brush that are removed from an area simple by using horned animals rather than polled.

 

[RDFF]

I don't live in the desert SW, and haven't had to manage there, so "context" of what I'm familiar with has to come into play, and has to "qualify" my comments (grain of salt here...) but I haven't yet seen or heard of an area where, if you move in enough cattle in a high enough density for a long enough period of time, that they won't be able to have a dramatic impact on the woody species in that area. Most often, we're needing to LIMIT their density/time on an area, so they don't have too MUCH of an impact. The trick then is to understand how much impact they've had in a given period of time, and to use that impact, and ongoing intervals of impact, to our advantage to achieve our goals.

 

[Lucky]

Yes there is a time and place for everything.
We still use chainsaws and equipment to remove juniper trees. But we have found we can make more progress if we don't remove them at the beginning and wait until they are dead/dieing before removing them.
But even the most overgrown tree or brush place can and will benefit from regeneration agriculture techniques.
Sometimes it isn't the quickest or the choice that is made . But I will 100 percent disagree with the statement that no amount of regeneration techniques would drastically improve the areas you describe. I don't think it is always the best choice to make to have everything in open grass land with no trees ect for animals either.
I think one of the easiest ways to remove brush and shrubs is almost always over looked. Horns.
It is amazing the amount of shrubs and brush that are removed from an area simple by using horned animals rather than polled.

I do agree 100% that animals will help control brush and bushes in pasture land. I also agree that trees and shade are important so when we were clearing we left allot of trees. The honey locust we took down were anywhere from 3' tall an 2" in diameter to 25' tall and 8" in diameter. Honey locust are invasive and thorny. Everyone said I'd never get them to stop coming back but by rotating the cattle through, mowing every few yrs, and spraying we've kept them at bay. A cow might rub down a bush but they can't rub down a tree. We also stayed a good ways off the creeks that run through the place. This provides extra shade, less erosion, and keeps the wild life around. We try to be what they used to call good stewards of the land

I doubt a 1,000 hd stampede woul hurt a 10 yr old boisdarc tree

 

[Rmc]

Goat Vegetation Oklahoma Browse – Goats

goats.extension.org

https://www.highlandcattleusa.org/content/oak%20savanna.pdf

Influence of Highland and production-oriented cattle breeds on pasture vegetation: A pairwise assessment across broad environmental gradients

Highland cattle are lighter, slower-growing and less demanding on forage than most production-oriented cattle breeds, which may affect vegetation comp…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Rmc]

We don't have honey locust or Osage orange in this area. But our equivalent Russian olive I think would give either one a run for their money. They are thorny and when you are scraped with a thorn it almost always turns into a welt . Any attempts at mechanical removal only act to invigorate new growth. If you use a dozer ,tractor to remove them. Every single root left in the ground will sprout a new tree . So you end up with 20 plus trees to replace the one you removed. Herbicide applied directly to outside trunk or leaves does nothing.
Only way herbicide works is to cut down the tree and apply directly exposed cambium layer. Problem is they are so bushy it is hard to get to the trunk to cut it down and cutting every tree down takes a lot of time and money.
Goats and horned cattle especially Scottish highland cattle will keep them in check and in many cases help reduce their numbers or remove them from the landscape.
It is amazing how quick horned cattle can turn a 2-4 inch 15-20 foot tree into nothing but a dead scratching post.

 

[Lucky]

We don't have honey locust or Osage orange in this area. But our equivalent Russian olive I think would give either one a run for their money. They are thorny and when you are scraped with a thorn it almost always turns into a welt . Any attempts at mechanical removal only act to invigorate new growth. If you use a dozer ,tractor to remove them. Every single root left in the ground will sprout a new tree . So you end up with 20 plus trees to replace the one you removed. Herbicide applied directly to outside trunk or leaves does nothing.
Only way herbicide works is to cut down the tree and apply directly exposed cambium layer. Problem is they are so bushy it is hard to get to the trunk to cut it down and cutting every tree down takes a lot of time and money.
Goats and horned cattle especially Scottish highland cattle will keep them in check and in many cases help reduce their numbers or remove them from the landscape.
It is amazing how quick horned cattle can turn a 2-4 inch 15-20 foot tree into nothing but a dead scratching post.

Honey locust spread the same way you describe. They are very easy to kill with the right chemical though. They are also a legume I believe so, maybe we got some benifit to the soil from them.

 

[50/50Farms]

We don't have honey locust or Osage orange in this area. But our equivalent Russian olive I think would give either one a run for their money. They are thorny and when you are scraped with a thorn it almost always turns into a welt . Any attempts at mechanical removal only act to invigorate new growth. If you use a dozer ,tractor to remove them. Every single root left in the ground will sprout a new tree . So you end up with 20 plus trees to replace the one you removed. Herbicide applied directly to outside trunk or leaves does nothing.
Only way herbicide works is to cut down the tree and apply directly exposed cambium layer. Problem is they are so bushy it is hard to get to the trunk to cut it down and cutting every tree down takes a lot of time and money.
Goats and horned cattle especially Scottish highland cattle will keep them in check and in many cases help reduce their numbers or remove them from the landscape.
It is amazing how quick horned cattle can turn a 2-4 inch 15-20 foot tree into nothing but a dead scratching post.

I'll send you as many wild lemon trees as you want. If they bunch up right, you don't even have to fix the fence behind them anymore.

 

[BFE]

I'll send you as many wild lemon trees as you want. If they bunch up right, you don't even have to fix the fence behind them anymore.

Cedars do a good job there too, not to mention Hedge. Hence, hedge row.

 

[Travlr]

Russian Olive...

Need I say more?

 

[kenny thomas]

Russian or autumn olive, Garlon 4 and diesel mix and applied to cut stump in the winter. Works great.