Sustainable Agriculture?

[Logan52]

I know this is a buzzword to many, it has been to me as well, but sometimes I do wonder if the changes to farming in my area are sustainable.
I bought the farm I live on in 1972. Most of my income came from the tobacco base and running a few cows. I was surrounded on all sides by full time farmers. Everyone grew tobacco but that only used a small portion of the farm. Some had 50 cow or fewer dairies, some raised feeder pigs, and most had a herd of beef cows. Very little overstocking of the land and very little grain farming. I could live modestly and make payments on the farm. The creeks ran clean and were full of fish. There were no deer or turkeys but plenty of rabbits, squirrels and quail. The woods were tall and open underneath, almost like a cathedral. I lived on a state road but there was little traffic. What traffic there was often stopped when they saw me sitting in the yard; this was pre-airconditioning.
Now most of the land has been cut up in 20 acre or so tracts with a nice new house on it. Traffic at eight in the morning and five in the afternoon makes the state and county roads dangerous, they were not built for this volume.
Rabbits and quail have disappeared, but we have deer, turkeys and coyotes in abundance.
The big time farmers that remain abuse the land with grain on land too steep to be kept in continuous crops.
Younger cattlemen deal in stocker operations for the most part, got to have that truck load lot size. Price pressures force keepers of cows to run too many head for the farm due to low profit margins. I have never seen as many poor and sickly cattle in my area.
I'll hush. I was looking at pictures my daughter took several years ago. I was struck by how beautiful everything was.
Those same pictures could not be taken today.

 

[Lee VanRoss]

L52> Having read and lived your 'Lamentations' I can appreciate your comments on Sustainable Agriculture.
In this area (which I will not reveal) land can go from 6K to $20,000. per acre. For the most part farms are not being
divided but added to. Houses on small acreages are being abandoned as it requires working offsite to make an adequate income.
One can entertain running a few cows but even that requires a modicum of scale to be economically viable.
The school districts have been consolidated to the point that you are 20 or more miles from a school.
The economics of having multiple children involved in extra curricular activities places an undue burden on the household
by virtue of distance and cost of transportation. In the past 4 months there has been 3 elderly people pass away
as well as a neighbor lady going to a nursing facility in the past year. I would guess that two of the five houses will set empty
until they razed to reduce the tax burden on the property. Two will in all probability become home for hired help. The fifth
I would think sold and reoccupied (I hope by a good neighbor). I wish you well. LVR

 

[Lee VanRoss]

Just reread that Only ONE house will be for hired help. 4 houses total Sorry

 

[BFE]

It's the same here. Once a farmer gets to a couple thousand acres acres they buy a trackhoe and bulldozer. Gotta have something to do after harvest so they tear out fence rows.

 

[farmerjan]

I agree with what you are talking about. There are 2 reasons for it that I can see. We have been pushed to make do with prices that do not keep up with the times so have to try to make it up in quantity.... dairy farmers have seen this for years. Costs meant they needed $17/cwt on milk and they barely keep it in the black... then we get the last couple of years where input costs TRIPLED and they got $23/cwt.... so they kept more heifers and milked more and tried to increase output per cow. Dairy farmers get paid more per cwt if they have at least 1/2 tanker load.... $.10-.30 PER cwt.... that's alot.... Stretch the small increase over more cows... volume output.... now the costs have dropped some, inputs are less costly BUT NOT back to pre "pandemic levels"... and milk is dropping back to $17/cwt in the next 2 months... So they are getting older and decide to sell the land across the street for more money than the land can ever make for them.....why be tied down 7 days a week and keep on working when no one wants to take it over either...

Then you get the "wannabe's" that have a "20 acre estate".... add to it all the chemicals they use to keep it "pristine"... all the mowing, destroying the overgrown fence rows where the rabbits could hide and raise a litter or two.... and the quail could have a nest and raise some chicks. There is no "wet spots" where they could get a little drink. They "tamed" the land so it is just another estate that requires more and more inputs to keep it "just so".

There are not the number of local small producers, or the number of stock sale yards, so that buyers can come in and get the "load lots" they need to make it economical to ship the numbers they need, to others that will graze the cattle before going to feedlots. It costs the truckers XX dollars per mile whether they have a full load or 10 head.... so the money is in the "load lots" ... and you can feed the numbers on smaller pieces of ground if you bring the feed to them and dry lot them... there goes the balance on the land....

Equipment costs out the a$$ and it is not nearly as "fixable" as it once was... you can maintain an older tractor yourself if you are a "halfway decent mechanic"... you can't even begin to work on the hi-tech electronic stuff nowadays.... so you need more land to justify that expense and if you can't make the land pay for it through the crop, then why keep killing yourself.

Then the younger generation does not see it as profitable. It's not... When you can work a 40-50 hr week job and have leisure time and make 3x the money a 7 day a week farm will pay you... IF you have a good year and the weather cooperates.......WHY do it???? There is not the connection between this younger generation and the land.... they did not grow up with Uncle Bill having a farm they go to visit in the summer, or feel any personal satisfaction of a hot day on a hay wagon and a cool off in the creek after and a little pocket money... and all the good food they can eat..and the freedom the farm allows....
There is such a disconnect to the land in so much of this country. Part of it is that most have never gone hungry, have never had to do without... When those times come around, there is going to be such a rude awakening, and by then it will be too late because they will look to the government to "take care of them".... and will be controlled by said government and not understand what they have lost because they have never had to "do for themselves".... it is becoming a totally foreign concept....

If we make $300 /head "profit" on feeders, we have to run 150 cows to be sure of the 100+ head of feeders to sell..... that with all said and done... that is ONLY $30,000 for 365 days of hard work... Not like working the 260 days at a job away from home with weekends off... and making 40-50-80,000 a year.... Plus all the money you have tied up in whatever equipment you own and the maintenance that goes into keeping it running. Not counting that your household expenses are probably less than the "fancy houses"... but you still have to pay them on alot less income than the 5 day a week person....
You are "on call"...... ALL THE TIME ..... for animals, for getting the crops in on time... at the mercy of the weather.... and constantly changing plans to fit the weather....

As a populance in general, many/most do not want to live the quieter, slower pace of life.... they are not happy with having less or content with what they have... and that is a big part of it.... WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH.

 

[Rafter S]

My location means that agricultural production has zero effect on land prices, and much of the land that is decent sized acreage (which I'd consider 10+ acres in this area) that is bought by people who have no interest in agriculture itself, they just wanted to move to the country. One result of this is that many of them will let someone cut hay on their place to keep it clean so they keep their ag exemption. They could let someone graze it and keep the exemption also, but many of the places are too small, or the owners don't want cattle on the place.

Because of the quantity of hay relative to demand it's fairly cheap here, especially compared to the costs to cut, rake, and bale it. Forty years ago when my father was in the custom hay business he'd cut and bale someone's field for half the hay. Then a few years later it went to 60/40. Now if you want a place cut and baled, but don't want the hay, you might get someone to cut and they keep all of the hay, and you might not.

We don't have quail any more either, but I'm pretty sure that's due to loss of habitat. Ground nesting birds have a tough time raising chicks if there are fire ants around.

 

[Ky hills]

Good post @Logan52 that's very much similar to here.
I was born in 75, my parents came back to the farm in 72, after my mother inherited some land and they they bought another piece of the family land that joined it. They worked public jobs and raised tobacco and ran stockers ( known locally as feeder calves). They had opportunities to add to the land but did not. My father was not in good health and passed when I was 18. I went with cows and calves initially, and we still had some tobacco. My parents were born in 1925 and 1929, my father's family were tenant farmers, and my mother's family owned their land and had some beef cows, a few dairy cows that they milked,and also raised veal calves on, sheep, hogs, chickens, and raised tobacco, and some corn on the creek bottoms. They also grew a big garden.
My mother says they very rarely ate beef,
They mainly ate pork, and a lot of vegetables. Unlike most families in the area they did not eat wild game, my grandfather did hunt and trap and sold the hides.
I came up around a lot of the old timers, like was already mentioned they stocked about 1/3 the rate of cattle that people do now. Most were pretty good stewards of the land.
Used to be that 40 or so cow/calf pairs and a tobacco base could keep it going, but that got increasingly more difficult over time and especially after tobacco changed over to contracts and just a few folks raised large enough amounts it was almost the nail in the coffin for small farmers here.
I believe that the old ways of raising several kinds of livestock are a possibility today to help utilize and maximize capable production on the farm. The specialized movement that has been so popular in recent years requires a lot of land and investment to run large cow calf or grain operations.
We are in traditionally an agricultural area, but land has been sold off in lots and small tracts to the point that the road frontage is almost solid houses in a lot of areas. Those people moving out in the county have either a horse or two or no interest in the country life at all.
We live on a state road that runs parallel to an intrastate, the Mountain Parkway.
There's so many people living out this road and county roads off of it that my mother said years ago, that when they first moved out this way traffic was heavy then the Parkway relieved it but then with so many people living out this way the traffic is worse than the years before the parkway was built.
Our property taxes are through the roof, 60 some percent goes to school system.
The city and county are frantic to try to get more people to move here, unfortunately all they see this side of the county for is for low income housing on the outskirts of the city and near by county property for development.

 

[Lucky]

I'm relatively new to owning cattle and land myself. We started 12 yrs ago with 90 acres and 18 cows. Now we're up to over 400 acres, 100 hd, and run the calves as stockers for 6 months or so. It's a real struggle to keep things going and I'll have to keep the day job for another 7 yrs at least. Every year around this time I start to wonder if it's worth it. I think it's just from the grind of working, feeding, and calving everday. Lots of 14-15 hr days in a row for me. Our son will probably want the ranch but lives 2 hrs away so is never here to help. The grandkids love the ranch but don't get out near enough and when they do I'm ususally working. The land around us is being bought up by city people who think 5-10 acres is a "spread" and load it down with goats and chickens. We could sell and sit on beach forever but that's not really for me. We make decent money on the cattle but not nearly enough to live on much less make land payments. We could make a living with our equipment working for the new folks moving in but that's just the same as a town job. I honestly dread what's going to happen when some of the older big land owners pass on and the land is further broken up. Smaller scale ranching and farming just isn't feasible anymore if it's not something you just really enjoy doing.

A friend of mine always tells his young new hires ranching is a lifestyle they need to love because it just doesn't pay allot. They generally last 6 months and leave for more money. I sorta envy him because they have fun on the ranch and have home cooked lunches everyday as group but understand the young guys leaving too. I think for the most part the enjoyment and satisfaction from a hard days work has been lost. It's a shame too because there's nothing like a good calving season, watching yearlings grow, or remembering the time you had building good stretch of fence when you drive by it 10 yrs later.

 

[Logan52]

Ky Hills, I always enjoy your posts. My father-in-law owns a farm up near Fox on the Kentucky River and has a lot of family up your way on lower Red River. He is well into his 80s but still actively farms.
I hesitated to make this post because I thought it might be misinterpreted.
Those pictures of my daughter's almost brought a tear to my eye. Over 50 years in one place with dogs, cattle, horses and sheep I had almost forgotten. I did not get rich but we sure did have some adventures.

I continue to farm, not so much to make a profit, but to have a place for the grandchildren to come home to. Best of luck to all here on the forum, may your kind find a way to continue.

 

[Rafter S]

My location means that agricultural production has zero effect on land prices, and much of the land that is decent sized acreage (which I'd consider 10+ acres in this area) that is bought by people who have no interest in agriculture itself, they just wanted to move to the country. One result of this is that many of them will let someone cut hay on their place to keep it clean so they keep their ag exemption. They could let someone graze it and keep the exemption also, but many of the places are too small, or the owners don't want cattle on the place.

Because of the quantity of hay relative to demand it's fairly cheap here, especially compared to the costs to cut, rake, and bale it. Forty years ago when my father was in the custom hay business he'd cut and bale someone's field for half the hay. Then a few years later it went to 60/40. Now if you want a place cut and baled, but don't want the hay, you might get someone to cut and they keep all of the hay, and you might not.

We don't have quail any more either, but I'm pretty sure that's due to loss of habitat. Ground nesting birds have a tough time raising chicks if there are fire ants around.

I can't edit it, but that should be "I'm pretty sure that's not due to loss of habitat."

 

[dave_shelby]

As a populance in general, many/most do not want to live the quieter, slower pace of life.... they are not happy with having less or content with what they have... and that is a big part of it.... WHEN IS ENOUGH, ENOUGH.

So very true. Greed in the farm industry is killing off other farmers ability to make it.

It seems that so much is fake in the modern world. Sustainable, green, organic, whatever. Its all half marketing and half an attempt at regulatory capture. Even more incredulously many of the people propagating end up believing it. But we live in a world where everyone is an entrepreneur, and investor. 72% of millenials expect to be "rich". I think a lot of this is the fed suppressing rates, punishing savers.

BTW, remember the vertical farms craze from a few years back? We didn't need farms, we needed to build factories that consumed electricity where we could grow stuff, mainly stuff that didn't take a lot of light like lettuces. No one paid attention to the fact that lettuce isn't exactly a staple crop and the thin margins. Start ups talked technology to bring in venture capital, without any thought to ROI. Well, fast forward today and they are failing.

 

[dave_shelby]

In this area (which I will not reveal) land can go from 6K to $20,000. per acre. For the most part farms are not being
divided but added to. Houses on small acreages are being abandoned as it requires working offsite to make an adequate income.

I keep reading about people moving out of urban and suburban areas and working from home. I see some of that here in Virginia. No one knows their neighbors anymore, but the few I have met have been from DC or strangely California. Is that not occurring in your area?

 

[Djm961]

I had to quit being a full-time farmer when my grandfather passed. My parents didn't want to maintain or keep the farm, but it meant a lot to me. The only way to afford it was taking a good paying office job. I have a couple kids now and have the cattle one the farm being profitable. I would love to set up my son to have the opportunity to be a full-time farmer but financially it doesn't make sense. My strategy right now is to keep putting money into my retirement and kids 529 plans. If we can start to develop some family wealth that is passed on after each generation, maybe in the future my grandkids can make the dream work.

Land price is too high for the cows to touch the monthly payments even if I didn't include my labor costs. I have tried to rent more places and that's extremely difficult in my area. Everyone is splitting up the acreage and building a hobby farm or row crop guys are farming these hills that should be pasture ground. The investment to get into the row crop business would be very large and guys are already paying premium rent prices here. I've considered selling the family farm and taking than money to a more local place where more opportunities may be available, but the farm has been in the family for almost 150 years now and I'm not going to be the one that sells it.

 

[Ouachita]

Is that not occurring in your area?

Lee has previously stated that he's not revealing his location. I think this is because he is a chatbot living in cyberspace

 

[Lee VanRoss]

I keep reading about people moving out of urban and suburban areas and working from home. I see some of that here in Virginia. No one knows their neighbors anymore, but the few I have met have been from DC or strangely California. Is that not occurring in your area?

It is a solid Red area. The Blues die from lack of freebies.

 

[dave_shelby]

Dems are moving in to my county and some are openly stating they want to turn it blue. I am not a trad red or blue but find reds mostly preferable over blue on state and local matters. The exception here is that reds seems to be advocates of housing and industrial growth and those policies work to undermine the character of the region.

 

[1982vett]

I can't edit it, but that should be "I'm pretty sure that's not due to loss of habitat."

Had them here till the mid 80's. Plenty of habitat. Fire ants took them out.

A few years ago I did see one here by the yard fence and pasture at the house. It most likely came from a hunting club release just a couple miles NW of here.

 

[RDFF]

So... what is the solution? I'm wholeheartedly against "more regulation"... I WANT to keep this a free country, where you are entitled to take your resources regardless of where they may have been generated, to purchase whatever "American dream" you desire. But from what I see, unless we DO regulate this "urban sprawl", and protect agriculturally designated areas from it... the $$ from other sources will continue to be used to "buy out" the agricultural land and turn it into bedroom communities for those with jobs in town.

I greatly appreciate this discussion! It validates to me that this is NOT a "regional phenomenon"... that's only taking place somewhere nearby to some heavily populated metro area. No... this is happening nationwide... and even globally. And it is literally destroying our agricultural foundation as a nation, IMO.

I graduated from HS in '75. Rural community, with one of the largest graduating classes ever... 170 (consolidated school district). I'd say that well over half of the class lived on a farm that they personally owned, generationally in most cases, and their family made their living exclusively from that farming operation. Most were diversified farms, with cattle, hogs, and chickens, and most raised all of the crops they needed to feed all of their animals. Most fed pretty much everything they grew to them, very few actually were "cash grain farmers" that sold crop itself. Today, that same school district has graduating a class of about 80, in a school building complex that's at least 2-3 times as big. The town itself is only marginally larger in population... the number of students in a graduating class that could claim that their family is making their living exclusively from their farming operation is easily countable on one hand. My cousin's son said he thought that only 2 from his class could make that claim (and his family was one of those 2).

This is NOT sustainable agriculture!

 

[RDFF]

Are we going to need to have a few wealthy "Yellowstone Dutton Ranch" investor individuals that finally buyout massively large tracts (with money derived from other sources...)... that are then philosophically determined to preserve the entire area for agriculture, and keep the development encroachment at bay? That too would drastically change the face of agriculture, even if this wealthy landowner would then "rent out" his land to his "surfs" who would then manage "their little piece" to make a living on it for their family... We'd end up with a "plantation owners" and their "share croppers" arrangement.

But now consider... what do we really already have going on? MUCH of the land that is being farmed by cash croppers is NOT owned by them... it's owned by absentee INVESTMENT landowners (owners that DON'T live on that particular piece of land and make their living directly from farming it), who then rent that land to the "sharecropper". That's not how it was in my area when I grew up. Very little land was rented at that time... This absentee investment landowner-renting operator inherently makes the farm operator more vulnerable... and more dependent. It places more emphasis/incentive on the perceived need to "get big or get out" mentality. It undermines the local interdependent fabric of the community.

I don't know what the "solution" might be... Looking forward to the thoughts of this insightful community!

 

[greybeard]

Plastic pink flamingos seem to be thriving where I live..tho many appear to have been born with just one leg, no doubt because of insecticide exposure.