"Straw Chasers" Good or bad for the industry?

[inyati13]

I was having an email discussion today with a fellow member of the CT community about whether or not "straw chasers" were good or bad for the overall cattle industry but more specifically as it applies to the Hereford breed.

I'm not educated enough on the topic to really proffer much of an opinion other than to say that using the "bull of the month" from reputable semen suppliers has got to better than using Craigslist junk to breed your cattle.

What say you seasoned cattlemen and women?

This is related to the too many breeds of bull thread. The bull of the month semen studs are almost entirely heterozygous, full of hybrid vigor. Like Alexfarms used to say, the role of the seedstock producer is to provide a homozygous bull and leave the hybrid vigor for the commercial guys. The bull of the month will always disappoint because it is for all intents and purposes an F1.

John, I think AllFoarage is going to agree with you on this one.

 

[inyati13]

I guess that I really don't know what you mean by "straw chasers". Could you please define it?

That is a term AllForage came up with. I passed it on to TT in our discussions. It is not limited to "The bull of the Month". It is a broader term AllForage uses to refer to producers who pursue genetics in a straw. AllForage can explain it better and I hope he comes into this thread as he has some valuable thoughts.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

See, here is what I do not get; like everyone from "old school" pasteing the simmental breed into the corner of being hard calvers (which they are not any longer), people paste show cattle in the corner of "bad real life cattle". Maybe, like Nesi said, shorthorns fall there but I can assure you that EVERY simmental heifer we have shown has come home and had babies. And most do a fantastic job of raising those calves, WITHOUT the expensive input of grain or supplements! Why does everyone automatically "assume" show genetics are bad? Are there bad cattle out there that are shown and not produce? YOU BET! But are there commercial cattle out there that do not produce? YOU BET! I know in my small part of the world, every known breeder I have bought a heifer/cow from has stood behind their breeding, and if I had a problem they would make it right by replacing my money OR replacing the animal. Do you find that in a commercial setting? If you buy Sally cow at the barn, and she has a dead calf, are you getting your money back? I think not!
Yes, we must feed grain for show, because the judge likes them conditioned (and some down right like them fat, which I am against). But not every heifer makes it to the show string, the rest are left in the pasture, and developed on good grass, AI bred, and later sold as a bred or pair. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with taking your best stock, that YOU produced with a straw, and "displaying" it at fairs? NOTHING! And guess what? My kids are better because of it! My 18 year old makes good money on the side AIing cattle while in college! Guess what she asked for for Christmas???? Not clothes, not money, not junk, but her own AI box to carry in her truck so she does not have to borrow ours!!!! And guess what else? If am sending my 12 year old daughter to AI school this spring so she can learn the same skill. She will be a straw chaser too!
I live in Missouri, where fescue is king and about they only thing you can do with your land is raise cattle. My cattle are scale busters, with AND without grain. MY CATTLE, that I raise how I see fit. That I produce, with God's blessing, with a STRAW! I am not a grass fed program, I am a seedstook producer. People buy my cattle to produce their own cattle, and want the gains and carcass data I get on my cattle. See, because I chase the straw, I got data to back up my cattle.
So call me a straw chaser, because I am proud of what I have produced. Period. No bull need apply here...... op:

 

[inyati13]

See, here is what I do not get; like everyone from "old school" pasteing the simmental breed into the corner of being hard calvers (which they are not any longer), people paste show cattle in the corner of "bad real life cattle". Maybe, like Nesi said, shorthorns fall there but I can assure you that EVERY simmental heifer we have shown has come home and had babies. And most do a fantastic job of raising those calves, WITHOUT the expensive input of grain or supplements! Why does everyone automatically "assume" show genetics are bad? Are there bad cattle out there that are shown and not produce? YOU BET! But are there commercial cattle out there that do not produce? YOU BET! I know in my small part of the world, every known breeder I have bought a heifer/cow from has stood behind their breeding, and if I had a problem they would make it right by replacing my money OR replacing the animal. Do you find that in a commercial setting? If you buy Sally cow at the barn, and she has a dead calf, are you getting your money back? I think not!
Yes, we must feed grain for show, because the judge likes them conditioned (and some down right like them fat, which I am against). But not every heifer makes it to the show string, the rest are left in the pasture, and developed on good grass, AI bred, and later sold as a bred or pair. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with taking your best stock, that YOU produced with a straw, and "displaying" it at fairs? NOTHING! And guess what? My kids are better because of it! My 18 year old makes good money on the side AIing cattle while in college! Guess what she asked for for Christmas???? Not clothes, not money, not junk, but her own AI box to carry in her truck so she does not have to borrow ours!!!! And guess what else? If am sending my 12 year old daughter to AI school this spring so she can learn the same skill. She will be a straw chaser too!
I live in Missouri, where fescue is king and about they only thing you can do with your land is raise cattle. My cattle are scale busters, with AND without grain. MY CATTLE, that I raise how I see fit. That I produce, with God's blessing, with a STRAW! I am not a grass fed program, I am a seedstook producer. People buy my cattle to produce their own cattle, and want the gains and carcass data I get on my cattle. See, because I chase the straw, I got data to back up my cattle.
So call me a straw chaser, because I am proud of what I have produced. Period. No bull need apply here...... op:

Kris, I have seen your program. Your stock grows fast are capable of producing pounds and pounds of beef. What I admire most is your passion.

 

[inyati13]

See, here is what I do not get; like everyone from "old school" pasteing the simmental breed into the corner of being hard calvers (which they are not any longer), people paste show cattle in the corner of "bad real life cattle". Maybe, like Nesi said, shorthorns fall there but I can assure you that EVERY simmental heifer we have shown has come home and had babies. And most do a fantastic job of raising those calves, WITHOUT the expensive input of grain or supplements! Why does everyone automatically "assume" show genetics are bad? Are there bad cattle out there that are shown and not produce? YOU BET! But are there commercial cattle out there that do not produce? YOU BET! I know in my small part of the world, every known breeder I have bought a heifer/cow from has stood behind their breeding, and if I had a problem they would make it right by replacing my money OR replacing the animal. Do you find that in a commercial setting? If you buy Sally cow at the barn, and she has a dead calf, are you getting your money back? I think not!
Yes, we must feed grain for show, because the judge likes them conditioned (and some down right like them fat, which I am against). But not every heifer makes it to the show string, the rest are left in the pasture, and developed on good grass, AI bred, and later sold as a bred or pair. What is wrong with that? What is wrong with taking your best stock, that YOU produced with a straw, and "displaying" it at fairs? NOTHING! And guess what? My kids are better because of it! My 18 year old makes good money on the side AIing cattle while in college! Guess what she asked for for Christmas???? Not clothes, not money, not junk, but her own AI box to carry in her truck so she does not have to borrow ours!!!! And guess what else? If am sending my 12 year old daughter to AI school this spring so she can learn the same skill. She will be a straw chaser too!
I live in Missouri, where fescue is king and about they only thing you can do with your land is raise cattle. My cattle are scale busters, with AND without grain. MY CATTLE, that I raise how I see fit. That I produce, with God's blessing, with a STRAW! I am not a grass fed program, I am a seedstook producer. People buy my cattle to produce their own cattle, and want the gains and carcass data I get on my cattle. See, because I chase the straw, I got data to back up my cattle.
So call me a straw chaser, because I am proud of what I have produced. Period. No bull need apply here...... op:

Kris, I have seen your program. Your stock grows fast and are capable of producing pounds and pounds of beef. What I admire most is your passion.

 

[AllForage]

Producing for the seed stock industry, using a straw makes my cattle way more valuable than a herd bull. Go to any breed sale, and I can pretty much guarantee you that cows/Bulls/heifers that are sired by a KNOWN AI sire will always bring more money than an animal out of a herd bull with no known name. Even if the "no known name" bull comes from AI sired bull/cow, the value is deminished if the sire is not well known.
So in the nature of my industry, I have to use straws. Or embryos. I am not big enough, nor have I been in this since my "grand daddy was born", to establish myself as a big name breeder. My cattle have to speak for themselves at sales or shows if I expect to get top dollar for them right next to the well known breeders. I let THEM take the chance on the "new stuff" and try to learn as fast as I can what the "new stuff" clicks with, and then match them to my cows. I look at offspring, and then search the cow family of that offspring, to see what kind of cow he is working on. Being in the show industry, I see THOUSANDS of cattle at many different stages, and can identify trends quickly. Hopefully, I am not too late to get ahold of some of those genetics and use them wisely. I may not be at the front of the pack, but by watching the pack run I hopefully can see who will last the race and grasp "those" genetics and use them in my herd. "Those" being the top AI sires in my industry.

Might as well tick a few folks off and join Ron in the "time out" corner.

Not picking on this individual although I'm sure she will take it personally. But read this post closely. I see seed stock, shows, big names, changing trends, matching cows individually, and so on. I thought the only trend is to produce beef at the lowest cost? Here is an exercise the next time one goes to buy a purebred animal. Ask the breeder what their "ideal" animal is. I mean describe the entire animal from form to function to intended end use. Then look at the cattle and the pedigrees. The pedigree shows the breeders intent. They never lie. It shows whether a breeder is trying to line things up or keep up with the jones'. Also at what point does a seed stock person step out and make a stand? Is it some miracle that a bull gets "famous"? Should an individual from a heterozygous herd get famous? Shouldn't a program gain a reputation through consistent selection, performance, and phenotype? How do you get consistency through matching cows individually? Should a seed stock guy be managing the herd as a population to increase the consistency and therefore the prepotency of all the individuals?

Perhaps I am strange, but I could give a rip if someone has famous names in a pedigree. I want to know the breeder and his program. Then see if that matches up with what I am doing and want. Breeding Betty Crocker style for the next outlier ribbon winner is not what flips my switch. My purpose is beef the way I finish it and then I work backwards.

I have zero issue with the use of AI or embryo. I will probably utilize them at some point in my life. It's the assumed superiority that I think needs looking at.

I fall into the category of if your Bulls are not good enough for you then I guess they ain't good enough for me either.

If the pedigree only has your prefix say 2-4 times and every bull under the sun, do you own those genetics? I'd say no you combined some stuff but it ain't yours. Take a step out there and use your own Bulls. If you feel like you need something then AI. But then fix it.

 

[highgrit]

Allforage is dead on in my opinion. What is classified as grass, grain and supplements? Some folks feed hay that's at least twice as good as what I feed, and cost 2-3 times more. Very few of the show and seed stock cattle can out produce my cows - calves on MY land under my conditions. I'm sure it's because I can't judge a quality animal by its papers. My best cows are the one's we've raised so far. But I keep expecting that to change.

 

[Herefords.US]

Producing for the seed stock industry, using a straw makes my cattle way more valuable than a herd bull. Go to any breed sale, and I can pretty much guarantee you that cows/Bulls/heifers that are sired by a KNOWN AI sire will always bring more money than an animal out of a herd bull with no known name. Even if the "no known name" bull comes from AI sired bull/cow, the value is deminished if the sire is not well known.
So in the nature of my industry, I have to use straws. Or embryos. I am not big enough, nor have I been in this since my "grand daddy was born", to establish myself as a big name breeder. My cattle have to speak for themselves at sales or shows if I expect to get top dollar for them right next to the well known breeders. I let THEM take the chance on the "new stuff" and try to learn as fast as I can what the "new stuff" clicks with, and then match them to my cows. I look at offspring, and then search the cow family of that offspring, to see what kind of cow he is working on. Being in the show industry, I see THOUSANDS of cattle at many different stages, and can identify trends quickly. Hopefully, I am not too late to get ahold of some of those genetics and use them wisely. I may not be at the front of the pack, but by watching the pack run I hopefully can see who will last the race and grasp "those" genetics and use them in my herd. "Those" being the top AI sires in my industry.

Might as well tick a few folks off and join Ron in the "time out" corner.

Not picking on this individual although I'm sure she will take it personally. But read this post closely. I see seed stock, shows, big names, changing trends, matching cows individually, and so on. I thought the only trend is to produce beef at the lowest cost? Here is an exercise the next time one goes to buy a purebred animal. Ask the breeder what their "ideal" animal is. I mean describe the entire animal from form to function to intended end use. Then look at the cattle and the pedigrees. The pedigree shows the breeders intent. They never lie. It shows whether a breeder is trying to line things up or keep up with the jones'. Also at what point does a seed stock person step out and make a stand? Is it some miracle that a bull gets "famous"? Should an individual from a heterozygous herd get famous? Shouldn't a program gain a reputation through consistent selection, performance, and phenotype? How do you get consistency through matching cows individually? Should a seed stock guy be managing the herd as a population to increase the consistency and therefore the prepotency of all the individuals?

Perhaps I am strange, but I could give a rip if someone has famous names in a pedigree. I want to know the breeder and his program. Then see if that matches up with what I am doing and want. Breeding Betty Crocker style for the next outlier ribbon winner is not what flips my switch. My purpose is beef the way I finish it and then I work backwards.

I have zero issue with the use of AI or embryo. I will probably utilize them at some point in my life. It's the assumed superiority that I think needs looking at.

I fall into the category of if your Bulls are not good enough for you then I guess they ain't good enough for me either.

If the pedigree only has your prefix say 2-4 times and every bull under the sun, do you own those genetics? I'd say no you combined some stuff but it ain't yours. Take a step out there and use your own Bulls. If you feel like you need something then AI. But then fix it.

I mostly agree with you here. My observation, regarding "seedstock producers", is that they fall into two categories, breeders and multipliers, and very, very few are breeders. So, most contemporary seedstock producers are multipliers. They are taking borrowed genetics and stacking them on other borrowed genetics, hoping to piggyback the success of someone else's program. The current proliferation of the popularity of the showring cattle, particularly in the Hereford breed and with the junior shows, makes the pursuit of some of the "silly money" being thrown at that market appealing.

I currently am a multiplier, just like most other seedstock producers. Twelve years into my program, I am only now getting to the point where there are a number of animals carrying my prefix in the third generation of the pedigrees of my cattle.

My desire is to be a breeder, and in my own mind I am a breeder, but I am also under no illusion of where my breeding program currently lies. You don't become a BREEDER until you actually have cattle where a majority of the cattle in a 3 generation pedigree carry your own prefix and you are responsible for the combining and recombining of the genes there. It would denigrate the work of true breeders, like Gudgell and Simpson, and contemporary breeders like Cooper, Holden, Danny Miller, and a few others for me to pretend to be anything other than a multiplier at this point.

And if someone's goal is the stacking of one AI sire, bred by someone else, on top of daughters of other AI sires bred by someone else, they will always be multipliers. It takes time AND A PLAN to become a breeder. Probably 20 years. Until a seedstock producer starts eating their own cooking, and starts using some of those bulls that they are producing and marketing to others, they are only multipliers.

Now, where is that "time out" corner?

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Ryan, I don't think you are ticking anyone off. It is your philosophy. You think your cattle are better because you use your own bulls. Your end market is the freezer,that works for you.
Breeders are all in this of the same reason, to make money. Some of us make the most money by selling genetics out of well known bulls (that come from a straw). You make money by selling the end product, freezer beef. We live in two totally different parts of the business. Some do not have hundreds of acres to raise their cattle, so some have to do the best with what they have. In my area, people are predominately cow calf operations. Buyers come looking for a bull that will put pounds on their calves when they sell them at weaning. That is what our ranch tries to provide. I have a waiting list of many people who would love to purchase heifers and cows from us, because our stock speaks for themselves.
WE are producing beef at the lowest cost, so why do you question that? how is my cost higher? I use straws, so I save money by not keeping a bull around.
I have some cows in my herd that run four generations deep of our prefix, but I also have cows that are just as good that just started with our prefix (first generation). Why is that a problem? Each cow makes me money, and makes the next person down the line money. Isn't that what this is all about? Making money, and having fun doing it? I get tremendous joy genetically matching my cows up to individual bulls, and watching those resulting calves grow and become great breeders themselves. I love it when bull buyers come back to me years later and tell me what a great job they are doing, and how their calf crop has improved.
I don't take it personally, we just have different points of view on how to raise our cattle. My way makes me money, your way makes you money.... We both win! :tiphat:

 

[AllForage]

Ryan, I don't think you are ticking anyone off. It is your philosophy. You think your cattle are better because you use your own bulls. Your end market is the freezer,that works for you.
Breeders are all in this of the same reason, to make money. Some of us make the most money by selling genetics out of well known bulls (that come from a straw). You make money by selling the end product, freezer beef. We live in two totally different parts of the business. Some do not have hundreds of acres to raise their cattle, so some have to do the best with what they have. In my area, people are predominately cow calf operations. Buyers come looking for a bull that will put pounds on their calves when they sell them at weaning. That is what our ranch tries provide. I have a waiting list of many people who would love to purchase heifers and cows from us, because our stock speaks for themselves.
WE are producing beef at the lowest cost, so why do you question that? how is my cost higher? I use straws, so I save money by not keeping a bull around.
I have some cows in my herd that run four generations deep of our prefix, but I also have cows that are just as good that just started with our prefix (first generation). Why is that a problem? Each cow makes me money, and makes the next person down the line money. Isn't that what this is all about? Making money, and having fun doing it? I get tremendous joy genetically matching my cows up to individual bulls, and watching those resulting calves grow and become great breeders themselves. I love it when bull buyers come back to me years later and tell me what a great job they are doing, and how their calf crop has improved.
I don't take it personally, we just have different points of view on how to raise our cattle. My way makes me money, your way makes you money.... We both win! :tiphat:

Let's clear some things up here. I do not have hundreds of acres. I do NOT think my cattle are superior. They do not fit in every situation and I only intend on marketing them into my situation. Number 2, as George stated my name is not into the 3rd gen of the WHOLE pedigree yet. I merely took a highly Line bred gene pool and now beginning my selection and environmental pressures. I am putting forth my idea of a breeding program and one I would buy from. A few others agreed so I am not the only weirdo here. Please re-read George's post.

How does cow/calf differ from any segment regarding breeding? If one needs show prices to survive perhaps there is something wrong. And again I don't care if you use a straw, the issue is every straw comes from everywhere.

You know there is a few chapters of a 1st book of a larger book read on Sunday's that lays this all out. That might interest you a little.

 

[dun]

Sounds like the farmer or rancher, ford or chevy argument to me.
I don;t care how someone else classifys me as long as I and my customers like my cattle and I make a profit.

 

[Herefords.US]

Sounds like the farmer or rancher, ford or chevy argument to me.
I don;t care how someone else classifys me as long as I and my customers like my cattle and I make a profit.

I think the key difference is, looking back at history, it is the lineBREEDERS that have made the lasting impact on the breeds, not the multipliers hoping to hit the genetic lottery.

 

[inyati13]

Ryan, I don't think you are ticking anyone off. It is your philosophy. You think your cattle are better because you use your own bulls. Your end market is the freezer,that works for you.
Breeders are all in this of the same reason, to make money. Some of us make the most money by selling genetics out of well known bulls (that come from a straw). You make money by selling the end product, freezer beef. We live in two totally different parts of the business. Some do not have hundreds of acres to raise their cattle, so some have to do the best with what they have. In my area, people are predominately cow calf operations. Buyers come looking for a bull that will put pounds on their calves when they sell them at weaning. That is what our ranch tries provide. I have a waiting list of many people who would love to purchase heifers and cows from us, because our stock speaks for themselves.
WE are producing beef at the lowest cost, so why do you question that? how is my cost higher? I use straws, so I save money by not keeping a bull around.
I have some cows in my herd that run four generations deep of our prefix, but I also have cows that are just as good that just started with our prefix (first generation). Why is that a problem? Each cow makes me money, and makes the next person down the line money. Isn't that what this is all about? Making money, and having fun doing it? I get tremendous joy genetically matching my cows up to individual bulls, and watching those resulting calves grow and become great breeders themselves. I love it when bull buyers come back to me years later and tell me what a great job they are doing, and how their calf crop has improved.
I don't take it personally, we just have different points of view on how to raise our cattle. My way makes me money, your way makes you money.... We both win! :tiphat:

Let's clear some things up here. I do not have hundreds of acres. I do NOT think my cattle are superior. They do not fit in every situation and I only intend on marketing them into my situation. Number 2, as George stated my name is not into the 3rd gen of the WHOLE pedigree yet. I merely took a highly Line bred gene pool and now beginning my selection and environmental pressures. I am putting forth my idea of a breeding program and one I would buy from. A few others agreed so I am not the only weirdo here. Please re-read George's post.

How does cow/calf differ from any segment regarding breeding? If one needs show prices to survive perhaps there is something wrong. And again I don't care if you use a straw, the issue is every straw comes from everywhere.

You know there is a few chapters of a 1st book of a larger book read on Sunday's that lays this all out. That might interest you a little.

Ryan, my partner in crime, you have carried your banner high. Substantively, I find myself agreeing with you. But...... There are markets!!! That is where the divergence is. You cannot blame people for chasing money!

Breeding is not a sacred institution. Fundamentally, you advocate sound breeding practices to produce the best form and function for the producer who as you say "is producing beef at the lowest cost". Cannot argue with that. What you are not giving fair due to are the other components of the cattle industry that have a significant economic impact. For example, The Phillips who operate Rocking P Cattle Company cover all facets of the cattle industry. They have commercial herds, they have seedstock herds, they have donor cows, they have show herds, etc. Chan has told me there is a tremendous amount of money in the Junior Show component of their business. That is where they make a lot of their profit to help support a very large multiple family operation. The concepts, principles, and methods of breeding for each of those components are different. Those "fluff and puff" components of those non-commercial and non-seedstock businesses are a big part of the cattle industry. Why? They make money. People apparently enjoy it. Lots of effort, time and money is poured into the Show Business.

Markets and fads are critical to every industry. For example, in the coal industry, someone will write an article about a mining technique and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. It may take a couple years for the fad to run its course but in the mean time, billions are spent on equipment, time and labor until it is demonstrated that it has no economic value. The cattle show business is much more that a fad. It has endured. Chan and Keith Phillips whom I buy from have discussed the role of the show business in their operation. They will tell you if you want cows for a commercial operation then don't waste your money on his expensive show stock because he and his father have worked for 50 years breeding their Simangus cattle for pasture life. Nevertheless, that show stock is where they make a lot of money. Parents want their children to compete and win. To win, they want the form and style that wins. That is real business. No different than some people want to drive a hot car rather than an old 1997 Toyota Camry like I drive. That chrome and shine sells because IT IS REAL BUSINESS. And that means money.

 

[Herefords.US]

Ryan, I don't think you are ticking anyone off. It is your philosophy. You think your cattle are better because you use your own bulls. Your end market is the freezer,that works for you.
Breeders are all in this of the same reason, to make money. Some of us make the most money by selling genetics out of well known bulls (that come from a straw). You make money by selling the end product, freezer beef. We live in two totally different parts of the business. Some do not have hundreds of acres to raise their cattle, so some have to do the best with what they have. In my area, people are predominately cow calf operations. Buyers come looking for a bull that will put pounds on their calves when they sell them at weaning. That is what our ranch tries provide. I have a waiting list of many people who would love to purchase heifers and cows from us, because our stock speaks for themselves.
WE are producing beef at the lowest cost, so why do you question that? how is my cost higher? I use straws, so I save money by not keeping a bull around.
I have some cows in my herd that run four generations deep of our prefix, but I also have cows that are just as good that just started with our prefix (first generation). Why is that a problem? Each cow makes me money, and makes the next person down the line money. Isn't that what this is all about? Making money, and having fun doing it? I get tremendous joy genetically matching my cows up to individual bulls, and watching those resulting calves grow and become great breeders themselves. I love it when bull buyers come back to me years later and tell me what a great job they are doing, and how their calf crop has improved.
I don't take it personally, we just have different points of view on how to raise our cattle. My way makes me money, your way makes you money.... We both win! :tiphat:

Let's clear some things up here. I do not have hundreds of acres. I do NOT think my cattle are superior. They do not fit in every situation and I only intend on marketing them into my situation. Number 2, as George stated my name is not into the 3rd gen of the WHOLE pedigree yet. I merely took a highly Line bred gene pool and now beginning my selection and environmental pressures. I am putting forth my idea of a breeding program and one I would buy from. A few others agreed so I am not the only weirdo here. Please re-read George's post.

How does cow/calf differ from any segment regarding breeding? If one needs show prices to survive perhaps there is something wrong. And again I don't care if you use a straw, the issue is every straw comes from everywhere.

You know there is a few chapters of a 1st book of a larger book read on Sunday's that lays this all out. That might interest you a little.

Ryan, my partner in crime, you have carried your banner high. Substantively, I find myself agreeing with you. But...... There are markets!!! That is where the divergence is. You cannot blame people for chasing money!

Breeding is not a sacred institution. Fundamentally, you advocate sound breeding practices to produce the best form and function for the producer who as you say "is producing beef at the lowest cost". Cannot argue with that. What you are not giving fair due to are the other components of the cattle industry that have a significant economic impact. For example, The Phillips who operate Rocking P Cattle Company cover all facets of the cattle industry. They have commercial herds, they have seedstock herds, they have donor cows, they have show herds, etc. Chan has told me there is a tremendous amount of money in the Junior Show component of their business. That is where they make a lot of their profit to help support a very large multiple family operation. The concepts, principles, and methods of breeding for each of those components are different. Those "fluff and puff" components of those non-commercial and non-seedstock businesses are a big part of the cattle industry. Why? They make money. People apparently enjoy it. Lots of effort, time and money is poured into the Show Business.

Markets and fads are critical to every industry. For example, in the coal industry, someone will write an article about a mining technique and everyone jumps on the bandwagon. It may take a couple years for the fad to run its course but in the mean time, billions are spent on equipment, time and labor until it is demonstrated that it has no economic value. The cattle show business is much more that a fad. It has endured. Chan and Keith Phillips whom I buy from have discussed the role of the show business in their operation. They will tell you if you want cows for a commercial operation then don't waste your money on his expensive show stock because he and his father have worked for 50 years breeding their Simangus cattle for pasture life. Nevertheless, that show stock is where they make a lot of money. Parents want their children to compete and win. To win, they want the form and style that wins. That is real business. No different than some people want to drive a hot car rather than an old 1997 Toyota Camry like I drive. That chrome and shine sells because IT IS REAL BUSINESS. And that means money.

You are correct! Looking at history, there have always been the promoters! And there have been folks that got into the "show business", seeing that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and have been hurt financially. The current cycle will change at some point and a bit of sanity will return to the Hereford business. Hopefully, it is before the majority of the breed is long down that trail of following the Shorthorn breed into irrelevance as participants in the REAL beef producing business.

 

[Nesikep]

I think, using the terminology brought up in this thread, there is a natural 'flow' of genetics..

I starts with true breeders, with linebred herds that have great consistency... Basically you can say these are the fullbloods.

Then you have the multipliers, and show herds, which get what they want from cherry picking what they like from the true breeders.. These are the purebreds

Next in line is the commercial cattle, the crossbreds, Due to financial constraints, and the higher price of the fullblood bulls, they go with the purebreds... it makes calves.

Next in line is me.. I still have an idea of where I want to get my herd as far as phenotype, I get my bulls from the 'multipliers' as well

Finally, the bottom rung is the Rez Cattle, a mixed bag, where you have every breed, any color, the box of crayons that is evident there's no goal in the breeding as long as it has a calf.. sometimes that's even optional!

The short of it is no breeder of any kind takes a bull from a lower rung... he will always take one from his rung, or one higher... He won't go two higher because it will be too expensive, and a waste on his style of cattle.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Great responses thus far, thanks all.

 

[dun]

I guess all of the big names in Red Angus like Beiber, Ludvingston, Beckton, Mushrush, Leachman, Glacier, Milk Creek, etc. must all be multipliers since they all use bulls/semen other herd prefixes.

 

[redcowsrule33]

I guess all of the big names in Red Angus like Beiber, Ludvingston, Beckton, Mushrush, Leachman, Glacier, Milk Creek, etc. must all be multipliers since they all use bulls/semen other herd prefixes.

My definition of a multplier is Damar (http://www.damarfarms.com). I have nothing against this approach to cattle raising, just not my cup of tea for my own operation, plus my pocketbook is not that deep. Plus their sales are a great opportunity to see what the bulls of the month can produce and you get to see large sire groups together.

Dun makes a good point. I can't stand black and white pigeonholing like this. The above listed programs use their own bloodlines and outside bloodlines that they feel will suit their breeding philosophy. Bulls on both sides either prove themselves or wash out. I don't consider them multipliers.

Those that consider themselves "breeders" have to face the fact that they need the multipliers and the big operations that will use some outside genetics so they can afford to sit back and see how these bulls pan out and reach that 75% accuracy.

All the different breeding philosophies deserve each other's consideration and respect as long as they are doing a good job at what they set out to do. :2cents:

 

[Nesikep]

It's not black and white, true, and it's certainly true that all levels are interconnected.

 

[dun]

And don;t forget the people that are so proud of their name that they advertise and push crappy genetics just to get their name in common use.