"Straw Chasers" Good or bad for the industry?

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I was having an email discussion today with a fellow member of the CT community about whether or not "straw chasers" were good or bad for the overall cattle industry but more specifically as it applies to the Hereford breed.

I'm not educated enough on the topic to really proffer much of an opinion other than to say that using the "bull of the month" from reputable semen suppliers has got to better than using Craigslist junk to breed your cattle.

What say you seasoned cattlemen and women?
 
It's highly dependent on what's in the straw. :mrgreen:
If they are highly focused on making a certain kind of cow then it's the fastest way to do that and it's effective.
If all they want is to give their bulls some name recognition so they can run them through the sale, it works for that to but it can cost the customer a bunch of money by way of the cattle not really fitting the environment.
BUT... when bull seller A runs his high $EN range ready bulls through the same sale as seller B and seller B's genetics read like a who is who within that breed and every bull is fed up like a slaughter steer, the buyers will pay more for seller B's bulls most of the time, so I can't blame people for doing it that way.
Having been in the genetics side of things for many years, I can tell you first hand that what people say they need from a bull will fly out the window when they get a catalog full of wants in their hands... It's very hard to sell middle of the road bulls to customers even if that's what they said they want.
 
CP, you provided some great insights. Thanks.

AllForage and I have exchanged numerous PMs on this topic. Glad you brought this up, TT. One of the concepts that came out of the discussion Ryan and I had was whether the breeding practices employed for the production of show cattle are detrimental to the commerial side of the breed. That applies to any breed. Seems to me breeding commercial cattle to function in specific environments and breeding for the show business is like two trains traveling on separate tracks. If breeding for the show ring is a problem, then is breeding dwarf cattle to be used in urban settings a detriment to the breed. Let's say a breeder on the plains of Alberta who breeds, culls and selects his cattle for the harsh plains. How is his herd genetics affected by a producer in KY breeding show cattle? The gene pools are separate. If show cattle cannot compete on the range land of Montana what is going to happen? Are they going to be a detriment to the gene pool of commercial cattle that are bred to function and preform in a northern latitude? I think not. What will happen is that the ones that don't make it are going to be selected against.
 
As a breeder you need to do your homework, look at calves, wet 2 year olds and make a judgement based on that or ask folks that have used these bulls, not just the first picture in the book. That being said if you dont use a few of these bulls you could quickly be left behind, as CP says a name on there goes along way in selling seedstock. if your in a commercial setting for terminal calves dont worry about all that and pick something with good growth or whatever you may need. The great thing about the straws is that you can use things that will compliment what you have or change whatever you need to change. So to answer your question its a good thing im my opinion.

Ron i think show animals and the ones going to feedlots are two totally different things and totally different breedings, and i think you are correct in the environment can effect decissions made on bulls if your in FL you dont want the bull that holds hair along time, you need something that sheds off well, so it all goes back to homework.
 
highgrit":3s3l0sfv said:
The problem in the cow business is everything takes so dang long.
Takes even longer if you do like we do and don;t use bulls that are then then 75% accuracy for the traits (other then carcss) that we're looking for.
 
dun":17wr7ogm said:
highgrit":17wr7ogm said:
The problem in the cow business is everything takes so dang long.
Takes even longer if you do like we do and don;t use bulls that are then then 75% accuracy for the traits (other then carcss) that we're looking for.

Dun, I don't quite understand what you're saying here.
 
TennesseeTuxedo":2s03i909 said:
dun":2s03i909 said:
highgrit":2s03i909 said:
The problem in the cow business is everything takes so dang long.
Takes even longer if you do like we do and don;t use bulls that are then then 75% accuracy for the traits (other then carcss) that we're looking for.

Dun, I don't quite understand what you're saying here.
I think TT what he is saying is that he used Bulls that did not have accuracy, or proven, on the traits he was selecting for. When the calves hit the ground, they were not what he had hoped for, so he lost all that time.
Accuracy in the EPDs are important for selection if you want as close to a sure thing as possible, because the bull has the data behind it to prove it.
Using bulls without accuracy can backfire.... And set you back a few years.
 
If you want to make more certain progress, use proven bulls by AI - not the "bull of the month".

In the recent symposium that the Hereford folks had, an Angus breeder said in his presentation that one guy picking bulls for one of the BIG semen companies said if he got one "winner" out of ten that he selected that he felt like he was doing well. Myself, I want to breed to the "winners" and to do that you have to wait until those bulls are proven...and their EPD accuracy levels are above that .75 that dun is referring to.
 
I think hes talking about the bull of the month.
Dun are you selling seedstock or just going to the feedlot? Big difference in my opinion.
If no one used these bulls there would be no accuracy and i do believe that acccuracy is important but sometimes you have to take a chance and trust in what people tell you about a bull, call the owners, if that bull of the month hits and your scared you will be 3 years behind thinking i wish i had sampled that bull if he doesnt hit you still have a calf that should( not always) at least be pretty good.
 
Fire Sweep Ranch":29f69grz said:
I think TT what he is saying is that he used Bulls that did not have accuracy, or proven, on the traits he was selecting for. When the calves hit the ground, they were not what he had hoped for, so he lost all that time.
Accuracy in the EPDs are important for selection if you want as close to a sure thing as possible, because the bull has the data behind it to prove it.
Using bulls without accuracy can backfire.... And set you back a few years.

I think he's saying the opposite, though you're completely correct FireSweep.
If the original intention was (Dun is the one to confirm) "If you do like we do and don't use bulls that are less than 75% accuracy"
then it does take longer because it takes a several daughters, maybe even two crops of daughters, for a bull to achieve those accuracies.
Either way you are delaying genetic progress but there's less risk in the end result by going for the high accuracy older bulls.
 
regolith":35257reb said:
Fire Sweep Ranch":35257reb said:
I think TT what he is saying is that he used Bulls that did not have accuracy, or proven, on the traits he was selecting for. When the calves hit the ground, they were not what he had hoped for, so he lost all that time.
Accuracy in the EPDs are important for selection if you want as close to a sure thing as possible, because the bull has the data behind it to prove it.
Using bulls without accuracy can backfire.... And set you back a few years.

I think he's saying the opposite, though you're completely correct FireSweep.
If the original intention was (Dun is the one to confirm) "If you do like we do and don't use bulls that are less than 75% accuracy"
then it does take longer because it takes a several daughters, maybe even two crops of daughters, for a bull to achieve those accuracies.
Either way you are delaying genetic progress but there's less risk in the end result by going for the high accuracy older bulls.
Bingo! We have used some of the hot new bulls in the past. But when you figure out the daughters aren;t worth crap, you've lost even more time then just using proven bulls. There are so many proven bulls, some of whihc were the hot ticket as youngsters that I don;t think we're giving up much. I hate culling coming 3 year cows because she didn;t work out as advertised
 
bse":55ykvtae said:
I think hes talking about the bull of the month.
Dun are you selling seedstock or just going to the feedlot? Big difference in my opinion.
If no one used these bulls there would be no accuracy and i do believe that acccuracy is important but sometimes you have to take a chance and trust in what people tell you about a bull, call the owners, if that bull of the month hits and your scared you will be 3 years behind thinking i wish i had sampled that bull if he doesnt hit you still have a calf that should( not always) at least be pretty good.
The straaight bred Red Angus we sell as seedstock, or the feedlot if they don;t work out. We have sold a few of the crossbreds for breeding, but our requirements for keeping any heifer are pretty stringent. I do hate to see those kinds of heifers go even if it is for breeding. We'll be selling more of them probably since we're going to be cutting back even more in the coming years.
 
Producing for the seed stock industry, using a straw makes my cattle way more valuable than a herd bull. Go to any breed sale, and I can pretty much guarantee you that cows/Bulls/heifers that are sired by a KNOWN AI sire will always bring more money than an animal out of a herd bull with no known name. Even if the "no known name" bull comes from AI sired bull/cow, the value is deminished if the sire is not well known.
So in the nature of my industry, I have to use straws. Or embryos. I am not big enough, nor have I been in this since my "grand daddy was born", to establish myself as a big name breeder. My cattle have to speak for themselves at sales or shows if I expect to get top dollar for them right next to the well known breeders. I let THEM take the chance on the "new stuff" and try to learn as fast as I can what the "new stuff" clicks with, and then match them to my cows. I look at offspring, and then search the cow family of that offspring, to see what kind of cow he is working on. Being in the show industry, I see THOUSANDS of cattle at many different stages, and can identify trends quickly. Hopefully, I am not too late to get ahold of some of those genetics and use them wisely. I may not be at the front of the pack, but by watching the pack run I hopefully can see who will last the race and grasp "those" genetics and use them in my herd. "Those" being the top AI sires in my industry.
 
I think there are certainly a lot of cases of show breeding going contrary to what the beef industry needs.. Shorthorns are good examples of that...

Options? well.. it would have to start AT the show... Rather than PUFFING up the hair, they're shown slick, the less hair the better... Now we can see what the animal really is, and there's no masking of faults with hair.

Another option, which would NEVER happen, and well, whether it would work is debatable too, but lets say you had a separate registry, specifically for the beef side of it, and no animal that has had any member of the previous 2 generations shown (grandparents).. that would reduce the 'chase' for what is current in the show biz, and thus more emphasis would have to be placed on the productive side of the animal... Yes, a crazy thought!
 
TennesseeTuxedo":jobs2rz3 said:
I was having an email discussion today with a fellow member of the CT community about whether or not "straw chasers" were good or bad for the overall cattle industry but more specifically as it applies to the Hereford breed.

I'm not educated enough on the topic to really proffer much of an opinion other than to say that using the "bull of the month" from reputable semen suppliers has got to better than using Craigslist junk to breed your cattle.

What say you seasoned cattlemen and women?

This is related to the too many breeds of bull thread. The bull of the month semen studs are almost entirely heterozygous, full of hybrid vigor. Like Alexfarms used to say, the role of the seedstock producer is to provide a homozygous bull and leave the hybrid vigor for the commercial guys. The bull of the month will always disappoint because it is for all intents and purposes an F1.
 

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