Stirring the pot

[Jake]

Here's a pm from me to Willow about the path of the hereford breed and quite honestly most every breed out there. I find it especially in the breeds that have turned black and in others which have always been that way and yes to an extent I'm talkin about Black Angus. I found this pm public worthy because I think it should bring some lively and informative discussion. And just for Ollie, I have spent some time "gettin out more" :lol:


"'I ended up doing a few searches on my own for good herefords and the one herd that I was fairly impressed with was Starlake Ranch, they have a sale Saturday. Prety good cattle, but still nothing to measure up to my great grandpa's or txag's....

No matter how much I look at the herefords I just can't see anything that I can fall truely enjoy as much as the overwhelming number of angus cattle both black and red that catch my eye and keep it. Just doesn't seem to be that depth of quality that there is in the angus breed, IMHO that is...

Don't mean to be an ass, but take for example the cow of yours that has the "tidy" udder, I would say that she is a calf companion that doesn't appear to milk well, and is extremely narrow chested, as I find is a problem with the majority of the cattle pictures posted on these boards. People chasing growth but forgetting about the fundamentals of the phenotypical female and male... They let their structure go to the dogs in order to get that perfect set of EPDs.

I would say that there are A LOT of good quality herefords out there. Many that would fit my ticket as a correct specimen, but there are enough people that chase performance that forget about the animal in the making that have ruined the standard of what the breed once had, I do believe that herefords are once again on the rise in the quality sector as I see more quality animals every year. But I think they have a ways to go to get back to the quality they once had. They quality I got used to seeing through my great grandpa's herd, and through breeders such as txag, certherf, Camp, and the others which I don't mean to short change....'"

 

[buckaroo_bif]

No matter how much I look at the herefords I just can't see anything that I can fall truely enjoy as much as the overwhelming number of angus cattle both black and red that catch my eye and keep it. Just doesn't seem to be that depth of quality that there is in the angus breed, IMHO that is...



I would say that there are A LOT of good quality herefords out there. Many that would fit my ticket as a correct specimen, but there are enough people that chase performance that forget about the animal in the making that have ruined the standard of what the breed once had, I do believe that herefords are once again on the rise in the quality sector as I see more quality animals every year. But I think they have a ways to go to get back to the quality they once had. They quality I got used to seeing through my great grandpa's herd, and through breeders such as txag, certherf, Camp, and the others which I don't mean to short change....'"

I'd be inclined to agree totally Jake!
My grandpa raised herefords too.
bif

 

[certherfbeef]

Starlake... Amazing what Monte can do with an unlimited feed budget

 

[preston39]

jake,

Over the years we have observed that a large utter is not necessarily required for a cow to be a good milker. I have not seen any stats on this but that has been our experience.

We currently have a 2nd year heifer that has a small utter and is currently raising two calves..and doing it well...they are 28 and 36 days old. After they nurse her bag is still looking...firm....alibeit small.... and have never seen the calves hunching.... much...which is often an indicator that they want more. Her dad's EPD's in milk are excellent and so is mom's. She has an EPD of 19 on milk.(angus bred avg. is 18)It is interesting the feeder veins under the belly running to the utter are larger than most cows I have noticed. So is her moms.

We hope for a ..."tidy"...utter anytime for many reasons..including possible trauma.

Last year her bag had milk running from it most of the time during the first few weeks of post delivery...we were concerned and wanted to pre-empt that this year....thus the second calf.

I think the dairy breeds are different..they seem to have large utters...designed for far greater milk volume than commercial cattle... with exception of the jersey which often has a smaller type utter but gives a lot of rich milk.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Sherry]

We had a Jersey her utters were so small she was hard to milk by hand, but when the herd was sold she was taking care of her calf and 2 more. That was not her fist time either. Wonderful Mother..

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Not to offend Jake. I respect his opinion, but a picture is not like walking around the real cow in the real pasture. Whether you want to believe it or not, upon my honor, the cow is giving so much milk right now that the calf is not able to hold it all, and the calf is doing very, very well. Most cows have some flaws somewhere. That's why we choose the right bull to address those flaws. The strengths of this cow are, good length, more than adequate milk production, sound feet, one of the best dispositions I've ever seen, she calves regularly and unassisted, healthy vigorous calves that grow. She has excellent pelvic area( First calf a 95 pound bull unassisted, yes I am working on bringing the BW down, and we also have bulls that were in the seventies and low eighties, even one around 60) The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut. She is broad across the topside of her rear quarters. Sure she has flaws, but she works.

 

[Jake]

The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut.

Willow.... that's called pot bellied....

 

[Beefy]

Jake-
why does it matter if a cow has a narrow chest? Males are supposed to have the broad shoulders and chests, females are supposed to have nice breasts. and hips. and a pretty face. good butt and nice legs. did i mention nice breasts?

Others-
Spelling lesson for the day:
uDDer

 

[greenwillowherefords]

The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut.

Willow.... that's called pot bellied....

Jake......I think you know better than that. One of the worst flaws a cow can exhibit is a slab side that has no capacity for forage. The term I should have used is "spring of rib." The cow is not pot-bellied unless that is what you call a cow that can earn her keep in the pasture without being supplemented with feed.

BTW, it wasn't so long back that you said that BB Cattle Co of Washington had better Hereford bulls than their Angus bulls. Another operation worthy of acknowledgement? Also Txag, Camp, or Cert would probably be happy to sell you a bull, and you've already voiced your confidence in them.

 

[WORANCH]

Jake-
why does it matter if a cow has a narrow chest? Males are supposed to have the broad shoulders and chests, females are supposed to have nice breasts. and hips. and a pretty face. good butt and nice legs. did i mention nice breasts?

Others-
Spelling lesson for the day:
uDDer

We had a Jersey her utters were so small she was hard to milk by hand, but when the herd was sold she was taking care of her calf and 2 more. That was not her fist time either. Wonderful Mother..

A Jersey with more than one uDDer.. :shock:

 

[Jake]

The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut.

Willow.... that's called pot bellied....

Jake......I think you know better than that. One of the worst flaws a cow can exhibit is a slab side that has no capacity for forage. The term I should have used is "spring of rib." The cow is not pot-bellied unless that is what you call a cow that can earn her keep in the pasture without being supplemented with feed.

BTW, it wasn't so long back that you said that BB Cattle Co of Washington had better Hereford bulls than their Angus bulls. Another operation worthy of acknowledgement? Also Txag, Camp, or Cert would probably be happy to sell you a bull, and you've already voiced your confidence in them.

sorry Willow, ment as a joke, forgot the smiley..

and to answer beefy's question, depth of chest is sight of easy fleshing and a quality milker. It is also a trait in which I've read to influence fertility and longevity, but I can't tell you where I read it, it's been a few years...

 

[greenwillowherefords]

The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut.

Willow.... that's called pot bellied....

Jake......I think you know better than that. One of the worst flaws a cow can exhibit is a slab side that has no capacity for forage. The term I should have used is "spring of rib." The cow is not pot-bellied unless that is what you call a cow that can earn her keep in the pasture without being supplemented with feed.

BTW, it wasn't so long back that you said that BB Cattle Co of Washington had better Hereford bulls than their Angus bulls. Another operation worthy of acknowledgement? Also Txag, Camp, or Cert would probably be happy to sell you a bull, and you've already voiced your confidence in them.

sorry Willow, ment as a joke, forgot the smiley..

and to answer beefy's question, depth of chest is sight of easy fleshing and a quality milker. It is also a trait in which I've read to influence fertility and longevity, but I can't tell you where I read it, it's been a few years...

OK Jake. The cow that you don't like and I do like was sired by a bull that bred cows into his fifteenth year. Longevity. She has never, never, come up open after being exposed to the bull. Fertility. She is not the most easy-fleshing cow I have, but she does quite well. You can choose to not believe what I stated earlier about her milking, but it is true. She has more than the calf is able to keep up with, and we are talking about a big, vigorous calf. Oh well. This subject is getting hashed to death. Anybody else care to post some pictures for frank and honest criticism?

 

[Jake]

The cow has tremendous capacity in the gut.

Willow.... that's called pot bellied....

Jake......I think you know better than that. One of the worst flaws a cow can exhibit is a slab side that has no capacity for forage. The term I should have used is "spring of rib." The cow is not pot-bellied unless that is what you call a cow that can earn her keep in the pasture without being supplemented with feed.

BTW, it wasn't so long back that you said that BB Cattle Co of Washington had better Hereford bulls than their Angus bulls. Another operation worthy of acknowledgement? Also Txag, Camp, or Cert would probably be happy to sell you a bull, and you've already voiced your confidence in them.

sorry Willow, ment as a joke, forgot the smiley..

and to answer beefy's question, depth of chest is sight of easy fleshing and a quality milker. It is also a trait in which I've read to influence fertility and longevity, but I can't tell you where I read it, it's been a few years...

OK Jake. The cow that you don't like and I do like was sired by a bull that bred cows into his fifteenth year. Longevity. She has never, never, come up open after being exposed to the bull. Fertility. She is not the most easy-fleshing cow I have, but she does quite well. You can choose to not believe what I stated earlier about her milking, but it is true. She has more than the calf is able to keep up with, and we are talking about a big, vigorous calf. Oh well. This subject is getting hashed to death. Anybody else care to post some pictures for frank and honest criticism?

alright Willow, everybody knows there are excpetions to the rules but I will agree this has seemed to have gotten out of hand as it does everytime I preach my deep chested sermon.... :roll: you'd think I'd learn....

 

[Beefy]

Willow where are the pictures yall are talking about?

 

[greenwillowherefords]

Willow where are the pictures yall are talking about?

Part of them are on "Greenwillow's critters again." Should be on the front page of the Breeds Board.

 

[Beefy]

i agree with you about the tidy udder and dont have anything against a tiny udder either, if it gets the job done. i call those tidy ones "tight".
dont judge a book by its udder. unless its shot to hell of course.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Jake I don't think you are an impartial judge, as most Angus breeders. I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for a herd of Angus. Now a pasture full of Bramer cows with a Hereford bull doesn't get any better.
Angus is not the only ticket to ride the train. The American beef industry was built on Angus, Hereford and Bramers. Even those frilly French cattle bring something to the table. Those fellows are a little sensitve too.

A true cattleman looks at what every breed has to offer in his region of the country to maximize ROCE.

 

[preston39]

i agree with you about the tidy udder and dont have anything against a tiny udder either, if it gets the job done. i call those tidy ones "tight".
dont judge a book by its udder. unless its shot to hell of course.

=========
beefy,
Just curious...If you call the...'Tidy" one "tight".. What do you call the ..."tiny".... udder? :roll: :lol:

 

[Beefy]

Angus is not the only ticket to ride the train.

A true cattleman looks at what every breed has to offer in his region of the country to maximize ROCE.

This is true Caustic. I cant remember ever returning from a sale without a check in hand that i was pleased with. ive never been turned away from the sale b/c my cattle werent all black. there are always several buyers buying predominantly black cattle, then there are several buying ostly eared cattle, several focusing on charolais crosses, a few getting anything they can get cheap, and then there are some that buy quality cattle regardless of color. ive never even had to bring a pure white charolais calf back home with me.

 

[Beefy]

i agree with you about the tidy udder and dont have anything against a tiny udder either, if it gets the job done. i call those tidy ones "tight".
dont judge a book by its udder. unless its shot to hell of course.

=========
beefy,
Just curious...If you call the...'Tidy" one "tight".. What do you call the ..."tiny".... udder? :roll: :lol:

i dont know that ive ever called a tiny one anything before. i dont think ive ever had to refer to a tiny udder, i have mostly beefmaster crosses. some of the limosuin crosses i would say have a small, tight udder.