Stirring the pot on the LH/corriente topic

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I resent having to go black to get the top price, but Warren may have a point here.
No CAB and black calves bring less than they do currently, colored calves a little more, and the average about where it is now?
If CAB went away, I don't believe colored calves will bring any more at all, they're bringing what they're worth, black calves will just go down due to a premium loss.( Wishing for that to happen is kind of like wanting high money earners to be penalized by pay massively higher tax rates just because they make more money and you don't so you don't think it's fair). To willingly not go for the premium price, despite all the rhetoric about the others are just as good, is to give yourself a "dock" because you don't like black calves, don't choose the stock to create black calves or you aren't interested in earning a premium or you're just trying to make a point.

It happens in a lot of livestock venues.

We show cow horses, a lot of times there is an added bonus for Texas bred horses in our region that is paid by the TQHA.

Does that mean I get "docked" for a LA bred horse, or does that mean that by letting my mare foal in Stonewall LA instead of Huntsville Tx at my daughters place I chose to have a horse that doesn't qualify.

My horse could have won the event and beat the TX bred horses, in fact 1st and reserve could be won by an out of state horse but I still don't get the bonus, the TX bred horse will. I didn't get "docked", I didn't qualify for the premium and however they created the premium didn't matter. I didn't meet the criteria
 
The CAB deal will have to adapt or it will fade out. Every year they dilute the program down more and more. Eventually no amount of marketing will be able to cover up the math.

With all the technology coming on genetic testing, scanning and more... there will be no games to be played. They will know what they are buying before they make an offer.
 
I don't have any problem with anyone buying Corriente and raising them on kudzu, or breeding to bulls that put solid colors on the calves. But I do think it's pretty low to intentionally mask them with a black hide so people bidding think they are buying skinny, potentially CAB qualifying calves. I mean, it's smart if he can get away with it, but it's still not right to do it intentionally, knowing the calves will never grow and grade. It's why we buy American instead of buying Chinese crap. It's like selling a vehicle you know has a bad differential and putting sawdust in it to quiet the noise... and spending the time to wax and polish so you raise the price higher to make even more money. Smart? Yeah... But not anything an honest person does.

Especially when it's just as easy to buy good cows that will raise calves that grow and grade, and you can have some pride in what you produce.

The cattle business is tough, and we struggle as we compete with each other, but there's a line that I would never cross and I survived just fine.

I agree with a lot of that. We all know the AB is a buy at your own risk auction. The issue is we only hurt ourselves. We can't complain that we don't get the prices we deserve or the prices don't reflect our inputs when we do things like this.

Buyers run numbers on the odds or stats. If they buy a black calf that they thought was a beef calf and it doesn't produce up to those stats they don't go... well... thats on me... let me reach in my pocket and cover that with my personal money. They take that loss out off all the other calves they buy. When this happens for enough years, to enough buyers, over a long enough period of time... we all pay the price.

So, as a small producer, where your main market is the AB, if you contribute to the lower avg value, you can't complain about getting lower prices.

There is reason groups on Superior or Jeanne Simme or these other people get more for their calves. They produce what they say they are producing and are willing to hang their reputation on it. Buyers know, because the math says so, that they can pay more for those animals because they are what the producer says they are and have had the vaccines and been on the program those sellers say they have.

Technically there is not a right or wrong per the "rules"... but you dang sure can't complain about the market they you as a producer create with your product. I don't want to hear the little man can't make it when we play these games and hurt ourselves.

... and this is not just Corriente or LH or even a breed deal. It's about the products we all produce.
 
The CAB deal will have to adapt or it will fade out. Every year they dilute the program down more and more. Eventually no amount of marketing will be able to cover up the math.

With all the technology coming on genetic testing, scanning and more... there will be no games to be played. They will know what they are buying before they make an offer.
maybe so but as long as they are making money with their marketing program and as long as they can demand more for their product, the program, like it or not will exist. Everyone talks about the value of a niche market and they created one and took massive action and it has worked for them and as long as it is working and as long as they are profiting, the program will live
 
maybe so but as long as they are making money with their marketing program and as long as they can demand more for their product, the program, like it or not will exist. Everyone talks about the value of a niche market and they created one and took massive action and it has worked for them and as long as it is working and as long as they are profiting, the program will live
I think that's a given.

Some of us are generational in ranching. We play the long game and what we do now may effect others not even born yet. It's much bigger than sliding a dollar bill in our back pocket here and there.
 
If you are generational in ranching it's no difference than any other legacy business. To preserve a legacy, ongoing profits must be produced and preserved.

It will make no difference to the land, the equipment, the fencing, the homestead itself, what color the cattle are or how you profit from a proven long term trend.

The difference will be in what you get to pay forward to preserve your legacy and the future generation's ability to weather the financial storms that always come along in one way or the other.

My grandfather was a dairyman and loved Jerseys, so did my uncle. They fought the Holstein trend. It made a difference when they used to pay by butterfat content. When it went almost strictly to weight it was harder to justify the jerseys even though they liked them.

The effects of fighting a long term trend (which in reality has a bigger chance of staying than going away due to the backing and continued investments), means you will have to go forward knowing that the profitability won't be there to provide the infrastructure for future growth.

The future generations will have a harder time doing what we are doing when that happens.

JMHO
 
Here is a calf that come out of one of my cows I call lineback. If it was not for the fact that I got then so cheap I would not have bought them, and also at that time I was trying to maximize my spending dollar. Now I am trying to buy better quality stock. I still have two of the four linebacks I bought. I not really sure what breed or breeds they are; they do have scurs for horns.

View attachment 39035

View attachment 39036

View attachment 39037
I've had half a dozen or so colored just like this from l/h crossed with brangus. This was the main reason I switched over to char with the l/h I had. 1704467626369.png
 
If you are generational in ranching it's no difference than any other legacy business. To preserve a legacy, ongoing profits must be produced and preserved.

It will make no difference to the land, the equipment, the fencing, the homestead itself, what color the cattle are or how you profit from a proven long term trend.

The difference will be in what you get to pay forward to preserve your legacy and the future generation's ability to weather the financial storms that always come along in one way or the other.

My grandfather was a dairyman and loved Jerseys, so did my uncle. They fought the Holstein trend. It made a difference when they used to pay by butterfat content. When it went almost strictly to weight it was harder to justify the jerseys even though they liked them.

The effects of fighting a long term trend (which in reality has a bigger chance of staying than going away due to the backing and continued investments), means you will have to go forward knowing that the profitability won't be there to provide the infrastructure for future growth.

The future generations will have a harder time doing what we are doing when that happens.

JMHO
I can tell you from experience even in my short life, all these trends come and go. People get caught up in the marketing vs the big picture. As an example:

Is beef quality the future... absolutely.

Will it be through only the black Angus breed or black cows in general... History says no. 10 people are watching what they have done right and what they have done wrong and are improving on it, already.

We make slow adjustments with bulls to stay up on the market. Hence, the Angus bulls on F1 Braford and cross bred cows. We are topping the market with out drinking the kool-aid. If Sim or RA or any others become hot (when, not if) we will rock witht he roll... just like we always have.
 
I agree with a lot of that. We all know the AB is a buy at your own risk auction. The issue is we only hurt ourselves. We can't complain that we don't get the prices we deserve or the prices don't reflect our inputs when we do things like this.

Buyers run numbers on the odds or stats. If they buy a black calf that they thought was a beef calf and it doesn't produce up to those stats they don't go... well... thats on me... let me reach in my pocket and cover that with my personal money. They take that loss out off all the other calves they buy. When this happens for enough years, to enough buyers, over a long enough period of time... we all pay the price.

So, as a small producer, where your main market is the AB, if you contribute to the lower avg value, you can't complain about getting lower prices.

There is reason groups on Superior or Jeanne Simme or these other people get more for their calves. They produce what they say they are producing and are willing to hang their reputation on it. Buyers know, because the math says so, that they can pay more for those animals because they are what the producer says they are and have had the vaccines and been on the program those sellers say they have.

Technically there is not a right or wrong per the "rules"... but you dang sure can't complain about the market they you as a producer create with your product. I don't want to hear the little man can't make it when we play these games and hurt ourselves.

... and this is not just Corriente or LH or even a breed deal. It's about the products we all produce.
Yup... and there are two ways to view making money in cattle from everything I have seen.

Either you buy the cheapest, poorest cows and bull you can find and gripe that you aren't getting the same prices that other animals are getting... or you try your best to find the best cattle you can afford and do your best to improve on them with your calf crop and you are the guy getting the top prices that the other guys are complaining about not getting.
 
I can tell you from experience even in my short life, all these trends come and go. People get caught up in the marketing vs the big picture. As an example:

Is beef quality the future... absolutely.

Will it be through only the black Angus breed or black cows in general... History says no. 10 people are watching what they have done right and what they have done wrong and are improving on it, already.

We make slow adjustments with bulls to stay up on the market. Hence, the Angus bulls on F1 Braford and cross bred cows. We are topping the market with out drinking the kool-aid. If Sim or RA or any others become hot (when, not if) we will rock witht he roll... just like we always have.
Maybe, but you have to agree that there's never been a push for the black premium like this from a well funded program and the influence of it is apparent everywhere.

Just look at what has happened and it wasn't overnight.

The sims in the 70's and 80's sure weren't very black, nor were the Lims

The RA's even though it is supposedly a colored version of the angus breed isn't getting the premium like the blacks do either.

TRends change markets of all products for long periods of time and some time seem almost irreversible.

So the question is, knowing the trends, if a black calf and a red calf walk into the ring and the black calf continually brings more (the reason doesn't matter), why would you go out of the way to produce another color if it takes the same input and effort unless you are trying to make a statement.

And if the statement is

"I'm ok with working as hard to produce a product that I know won't bring as much as another product which has the same production costs, and I willingly and knowingly understand I am throwing profits out the window"

And you believe that's a good thing, go ahead and do it, that's the good part about our country, you are free to choose to do whatever you want as long as you can bear the costs.

You just really can't blame others for your loss when you do and you can't complain about "fair" .
 
Maybe, but you have to agree that there's never been a push for the black premium like this from a well funded program and the influence of it is apparent everywhere.

Just look at what has happened and it wasn't overnight.

The sims in the 70's and 80's sure weren't very black, nor were the Lims

The RA's even though it is supposedly a colored version of the angus breed isn't getting the premium like the blacks do either.

TRends change markets of all products for long periods of time and some time seem almost irreversible.

So the question is, knowing the trends, if a black calf and a red calf walk into the ring and the black calf continually brings more (the reason doesn't matter), why would you go out of the way to produce another color if it takes the same input and effort unless you are trying to make a statement.

And if the statement is

"I'm ok with working as hard to produce a product that I know won't bring as much as another product which has the same production costs, and I willingly and knowingly understand I am throwing profits out the window"

And you believe that's a good thing, go ahead and do it, that's the good part about our country, you are free to choose to do whatever you want as long as you can bear the costs.

You just really can't blame others for your loss when you do and you can't complain about "fair" .
There is no doubt they have the best marketing we have seen. Isn't that how the latest trend always is, if it's good?

I'm not following you. Not sure if you mean, "you", like as in me, personaly, or just people in general?

😄 I take advantage of it just like every one else.

With that said though, I think we need the diversity of people not going with the latest trends or most profitable, all the time. That's scary to think of and who will be around to come up with the next improvements in the industry or to call out the flaws in the current system.
 
I've had half a dozen or so colored just like this from l/h crossed with brangus. This was the main reason I switched over to char with the l/h I had. View attachment 39075
I don't have any cows that look like that. One of these days I will post a picture of the two cows with the white line on their back. I bought them because they were cheap, and it was just starting to build my herd; I was trying to maximize my dollars. I am now working on improving my herd as I cull. I started with four of those lineback cows, and now am down to just two.
 
Maybe, but you have to agree that there's never been a push for the black premium like this from a well funded program and the influence of it is apparent everywhere.

Just look at what has happened and it wasn't overnight.

The sims in the 70's and 80's sure weren't very black, nor were the Lims

The RA's even though it is supposedly a colored version of the angus breed isn't getting the premium like the blacks do either.

TRends change markets of all products for long periods of time and some time seem almost irreversible.

So the question is, knowing the trends, if a black calf and a red calf walk into the ring and the black calf continually brings more (the reason doesn't matter), why would you go out of the way to produce another color if it takes the same input and effort unless you are trying to make a statement.

And if the statement is

"I'm ok with working as hard to produce a product that I know won't bring as much as another product which has the same production costs, and I willingly and knowingly understand I am throwing profits out the window"

And you believe that's a good thing, go ahead and do it, that's the good part about our country, you are free to choose to do whatever you want as long as you can bear the costs.

You just really can't blame others for your loss when you do and you can't complain about "fair" .
Amen! You are 100% dead on. And I might add, that I have never seen armed security at Kroger, forcing people at gun point to buy angus beef.. I don't buy it for hamburger, fajita, stew beef, etc. Even sometimes roast. But as long as people do demand it, Kroger will charge more for it. Because their packers charge them more for it, and pay more for carcasses that do acheive certified agent status. And as long as that premiunm is paid at the packers, then people down the chain...feed lots and their buyers... people who buy calves to condition and send to the feed lots, and the people who buy the weaned calves at the local sale to re-sale to conditioners, will gamble on a black calf bringing them more at the nest stop up the chain. The processors have NO gamble, the USDA inspectors tell them if this carcass scored CAB. The man buying the 6 mos old black calves, gambles the most. Probably less than 50% make it to CAB. But, ZERO percent of white, red, smoky, etc, calves will. The quality of the calf still pays a big part. I have seen top quality off-colored calves bring more than some of the not-so-nice black calves do. But a top quality black calf will bring more than the top-quality off-colored ones do. I have often said to myself, when I see someone on here complaining that his red calves don't bring what his black ones do: "Well, get a homo for black and polled bull, or ****" There was never any need at all, for turning other breeds black. If you preferred the old line Herefords, then be a seed stock producer. Or the old red & white, Simms, the red Lims etc. . Plenty of market for these with commercial cow-calf producers. You can have a herd of Herfs, Simms, whatever, and just put an Angus bull on them, and they won't get "docked". Simms marble well. No need to have turned them into another Angus cross. You could breed those cows to a homo for black angus or Brangus, and get as good a calf as you could raising black Simms. Or put one of those bulls on your herd of Angus, and get the same thing.
In a parallel universe some where, if you could go back to the 70's, and instead of people turning breeds black, the breeders just selected for REA, marbling, polled, etc.,, and left the color alone, and just started breeding to Angus bulls when CAB was born, the calves produced would be as good or better, and the integrity of these other breeds would have remained intact.
 
If CAB went away, I don't believe colored calves will bring any more at all, they're bringing what they're worth, black calves will just go down due to a premium loss.( Wishing for that to happen is kind of like wanting high money earners to be penalized by pay massively higher tax rates just because they make more money and you don't so you don't think it's fair). To willingly not go for the premium price, despite all the rhetoric about the others are just as good, is to give yourself a "dock" because you don't like black calves, don't choose the stock to create black calves or you aren't interested in earning a premium or you're just trying to make a point.
Again, you nailed it! People who don't make as much for their non-black caves, choose to do so!

I used the horse analogy once on another of these threads. I mentioned there are races with added money for KY bred TBs, California bred TBs, Florida TBs, Louisiana breds, etc. In a KY bred stakes race, you are NOT "docked" or "kept out of the money", if you want to race Cali-bred horses. I think about 4 people on here "got it".
 
There is no doubt they have the best marketing we have seen. Isn't that how the latest trend always is, if it's good?

I'm not following you. Not sure if you mean, "you", like as in me, personaly, or just people in general?

😄 I take advantage of it just like every one else.

With that said though, I think we need the diversity of people not going with the latest trends or most profitable, all the time. That's scary to think of and who will be around to come up with the next improvements in the industry or to call out the flaws in the current system.
If the flaw is color, there's enough diversity already in the breeds to produce what is wanted. If the fix is having other colors there's enough that get pissed off and have a point to prove that they will raise others and even enough that don't care so they just keep on doing what they do because they like it

And you means in general
 
I resent having to go black to get the top price, but Warren may have a point here.
No CAB and black calves bring less than they do currently, colored calves a little more, and the average about where it is now?
No, a 500 lb black steer that will obviously grade prime may bring $3.50 today, and a top-quality Char or red Sim, etc, may bring $3. If CAB magically went away, and there was no CAB beef at Krogers at a higher price any more, then the black calf would bring $3 as well. There is no "dock" for red or white calves. There is a "premium" paid for black.
 
If the flaw is color, there's enough diversity already in the breeds to produce what is wanted. If the fix is having other colors there's enough that get pissed off and have a point to prove that they will raise others and even enough that don't care so they just keep on doing what they do because they like it

And you means in general
Imo, what the CAB deal did that is really amazing is they got a large number of people all headed in the same direction. Breed, color, etc... all that aside. They took a notoriously independent group of people and got a large percentage to all move toward the same target, with marketing.

That's why I say, they will either have to adapt or the next group will sure up the loopholes and put them out of business.
 
"I'm ok with working as hard to produce a product that I know won't bring as much as another product which has the same production costs, and I willingly and knowingly understand I am throwing profits out the window"

I think you are missing the FACT that there are other breeds that have just as much quality, if not more, than black ANGUS. There are people that want to produce high quality beef, and do it with better animals regardless of breed or color.

You just really can't blame others for your loss when you do and you can't complain about "fair" .

And yes, I can complain about "fair", regardless of anyone being blind to the detriments CAB bring to the industry.

When Identical quality calves walk into a ring, animals that will grow and grade identically, and only the black one gets a "premium"... that's a discount on the other animals for NO reason other than the marketing strategy that hurts the entire industry.

There is only so much money in a buyer's pocket or in any market. If they are spending "premiums" for black hides then they are not spending as much for any other animals.
 
I don't have any cows that look like that. One of these days I will post a picture of the two cows with the white line on their back. I bought them because they were cheap, and it was just starting to build my herd; I was trying to maximize my dollars. I am now working on improving my herd as I cull. I started with four of those lineback cows, and now am down to just two.
I had just a couple that were not solid, here is a red, bred to same bull in consecutive years with different results. Will drive you nuts LOL1704479110538.png
 

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