South Africa Farms

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TennesseeTuxedo":1f45hvq4 said:
Bright Raven":1f45hvq4 said:
TennesseeTuxedo":1f45hvq4 said:
And no Ron, I'm not joking. Somebody once said war is he!!.

By the same token, pay backs are heII!

I'm aware which is why I would have eradicated the problem.

Then you are advocating genocide. The total eradication of the native people as a means to prevent them from future retaliation and the reclamation of their native lands.

TT: I know you profess to be a Christian. Could you murder every man, woman, child in a "scorched earth" policy with the objective to eradicate their future threat? Even if they were non-combatants?
 
Bright Raven":2gbiltqx said:
TennesseeTuxedo":2gbiltqx said:
Bright Raven":2gbiltqx said:
By the same token, pay backs are heII!

I'm aware which is why I would have eradicated the problem.

Then you are advocating genocide. The total eradication of the native people as a means to prevent them from future retaliation and the reclamation of their native lands.

TT: I know you profess to be a Christian. Could you murder every man, woman, child in a "scorched earth" policy with the objective to eradicate their future threat? Even if they were non-combatants?

I've got a touch of Ghengis Khan in me. Grit will verify.
 
TennesseeTuxedo":qwgl7nji said:
Bright Raven":qwgl7nji said:
TennesseeTuxedo":qwgl7nji said:
I'm aware which is why I would have eradicated the problem.

Then you are advocating genocide. The total eradication of the native people as a means to prevent them from future retaliation and the reclamation of their native lands.

TT: I know you profess to be a Christian. Could you murder every man, woman, child in a "scorched earth" policy with the objective to eradicate their future threat? Even if they were non-combatants?

I've got a touch of Ghengis Khan in me. Grit will verify.

I am not judging. I would not kill one innocent person if you gave me the whole earth.
 
Bright Raven":axob0zr3 said:
TennesseeTuxedo":axob0zr3 said:
Bright Raven":axob0zr3 said:
Then you are advocating genocide. The total eradication of the native people as a means to prevent them from future retaliation and the reclamation of their native lands.

TT: I know you profess to be a Christian. Could you murder every man, woman, child in a "scorched earth" policy with the objective to eradicate their future threat? Even if they were non-combatants?

I've got a touch of Ghengis Khan in me. Grit will verify.

I am not judging. I would not kill one innocent person if you gave me the whole earth.

But you'd kill the other soldiers? What are they guilty of?
 
TennesseeTuxedo":2ocnblmg said:
Bright Raven":2ocnblmg said:
TennesseeTuxedo":2ocnblmg said:
I've got a touch of Ghengis Khan in me. Grit will verify.

I am not judging. I would not kill one innocent person if you gave me the whole earth.

But you'd kill the other soldiers? What are they guilty of?

I will defend. I will protect against a threat. But nothing could compel me to kill an innocent person for material gain. Just not in me.
 
Bright Raven":illbrwxm said:
TennesseeTuxedo":illbrwxm said:
Bright Raven":illbrwxm said:
I am not judging. I would not kill one innocent person if you gave me the whole earth.

But you'd kill the other soldiers? What are they guilty of?

I will defend. I will protect against a threat. But nothing could compel me to kill an innocent person for material gain. Just not in me.

I understand.
 
The only source of information on the early history of South Africa is what is written in history books. History is at best an interpretation of records and documents. Some accounts of the early settlement of South Africa state that there were indigenous tribes occupying what became Cape Province. Here is some history on early settlement:

The first permanent European settlement was established by the Dutch on 06 April 1652, when they established a garrisoned trading station at Table Bay. On that April day, Jan van Riebeeck arrived with 3 ships and a company of 90 men, women and children. In 1657 nine of these settlers established a settlement in the Liesbeeck Valley. They grew crops to supply the Cape and the many passing ships. As shipping traffic increased around the Cape, these farmers needed more labour to replenish the passing ships. Jan van Riebeeck brought in slaves from places such as Java, Madagascar and Angola to work on the farms. The Cape Coloured people started emerging due to mixed marriages between Europeans, Asians and the indigenous peoples.

The Dutch, through the Dutch East India Company, governed the expanding Cape Colony from 1652 to 1795. During this period many European settlers arrived, including the French Huguenot refugees (about 200, mostly young and married) in 1688.

The first British occupation of the Cape Colony was from 1795 to 1803. Between 1803 and 1806, the colony was ruled by the Batavian Republic.

The British ruled the Cape again from 1806 to 1823. During this period, missionaries started arriving, at first only from the Morovian Brethren and the London Missionary Society, but later they were joined by German, Dutch, Danish and Flemish missionaries. From 1820 to 1824, about 4 500 immigrants arrived from Ireland, England and Scotland. These immigrants are referred to as the 1820 British Settlers.

In 1836, a group of earlier Dutch settler families started migrating into the interior of the country. This migration is referred to as the Great Trek and it led to the formation of the two Boer republics, the Orange Free State and the Transvaal. The diamond fields in Kimberley were discovered in 1869. The gold fields in the Transvaal were discovered in 1886. These discoveries brought an influx of fortune seekers.
 
True Grit Farms":2lzwcy5w said:
andybob":2lzwcy5w said:
Far more complex than is apparent, firstly. the Afrikaner trekboers, did not come into contact with the Bantu peoples until after they crossed the Fish river, thus annulling any claim by the Bantu tribes to the Cape/Karoo region. Land was traded from the Zulus for cattle, this land had been cleared of the original inhabitants by the Zulu - not the Afrikaner people so was bought from those who owned it by right of conquest. The Afrikaner people have been South Africans for 400 years, so why, just because of their racial origins and the fact that they did not pursue a policy of genocide on the tribes migrating into the country from the north (the Bantu arrived at the same time as the Dutch and displaced the San and Khoi peoples), as was done on other continents. The murders of the farmers are distinct from the shootings and stabbings common to most murders in the practice of often spending the entire weekend torturing the victims before murdering them, with no thefts usually taking place. The charity Genocide watch is monitoring the South African situation and claims the early stages of racial genocide are in progress. Finally, why was land still being sold to local whites and foreign investors under the new governments of South Africa and Zimbabwe, if the land ownership was being disputed from the beginning? These land grabs are in both cases later, politically based disputes. As a footnote, the many working farms bought and given to local blacks as part of the original land distribution have mostly failed to maintain production, so why would stolen farms be any more successful?
The majority won't be able to make it. No difference than being a coach in professional sports, most aren't cut out to be leaders.
You need to get up to speed Grit.
 
TexasBred":37397y47 said:
True Grit Farms":37397y47 said:
andybob":37397y47 said:
Far more complex than is apparent, firstly. the Afrikaner trekboers, did not come into contact with the Bantu peoples until after they crossed the Fish river, thus annulling any claim by the Bantu tribes to the Cape/Karoo region. Land was traded from the Zulus for cattle, this land had been cleared of the original inhabitants by the Zulu - not the Afrikaner people so was bought from those who owned it by right of conquest. The Afrikaner people have been South Africans for 400 years, so why, just because of their racial origins and the fact that they did not pursue a policy of genocide on the tribes migrating into the country from the north (the Bantu arrived at the same time as the Dutch and displaced the San and Khoi peoples), as was done on other continents. The murders of the farmers are distinct from the shootings and stabbings common to most murders in the practice of often spending the entire weekend torturing the victims before murdering them, with no thefts usually taking place. The charity Genocide watch is monitoring the South African situation and claims the early stages of racial genocide are in progress. Finally, why was land still being sold to local whites and foreign investors under the new governments of South Africa and Zimbabwe, if the land ownership was being disputed from the beginning? These land grabs are in both cases later, politically based disputes. As a footnote, the many working farms bought and given to local blacks as part of the original land distribution have mostly failed to maintain production, so why would stolen farms be any more successful?
The majority won't be able to make it. No difference than being a coach in professional sports, most aren't cut out to be leaders.
You need to get up to speed Grit.
I am TB, same can be said for professional quarter backs. I know all about Doug Williams and half of Richard Wilson. But by and large black athletes are physically superior to all others, but most are not leaders. Just a fact of life when you look at things with your eyes open.
 
Bright Raven":y5abf1ix said:
TennesseeTuxedo":y5abf1ix said:
I guess I'm old school. Kind of a "to the victor go the spoils" guy. I'd have annihlated the opposition when given the chance so as not to have to find myself in this position.

You know why they didn't kill them all? Because they would not have labor to farm, mine gold, and to some extent even raise their brats. No, in many cases, they didn't preserve their lives out of the goodness of their hearts. For many, there was no goodness in their hearts. In fact, their darkness created the nightmare of apartheid.
Again the history is more complex, the Afrikaans people - "Boers" literally farmers firstly trekked with their servants who were attached to families for generations, and were of mixed race, and often part of the family - frequently literally, so no new labour was needed on the farms. All that the Boer people wanted was to have their own republics where they could farm and live according to their beliefs and culture, they were not miners, the British and other uitlanders flocked in to the gold and diamond rushes, the large companies which arose from these gold and diamond discoveries - Anglo American etc, would rather have cleared the local natives out and contracted labour from other states so as to not have a troublesome local population - many Shangaan tribesmen were in fact contracted from Mocambique for decades to work in the gold mines. The gold and diamonds brought only war to the Boer people and they lost their republics and the tribes eventually lost their independent territories to the British who brought all under one union, this was the opposite of what the Boers wanted which was for each group to rule their own in their own lands - apartheid or separate development so as to not have the larger tribal groups dominating, several small tribes made alliances with the Boers for protection against the larger tribes, rather than suppressing the Bantu immigrants, they just wanted to live in peace in their own land and have cordial relationships with their neighbours.
 
Dave":dlchx7xu said:
Bright Raven":dlchx7xu said:
You guys might want to pay a little more attention to Andybob. He has done much more than read a few books about Africa. A few older members here may remember his story.

I read what he posted. I find what he said to be consistent with my study. I know he lived in Zimbabwe and if I remember, fought in the Bush wars.

I am from Zimbabwe/Rhodesia where we were farming, served 1975 - 1980 with the Rhodesian African Rifles during the bush war. The initial farm re settlement went well with willing seller where plenty of assistance was given to the new owners, and farms not suitable were given a "certificate of no interest" and could be then sold on the open market, with no further claim by the government (despite this, these farms were later invaded) When too many farms were being bought for government officials weekend retreats instead of for disadvantaged tribesmen, the British stopped funding until more transparency was provided, and so the scheme stalled, and was followed months later by the farm invasions by the ex terrorists displeased by the settlements supplied by the government. Farms bought by foreign investors with guarantees from the presidents' office were likewise invaded so too were many successful black owned farms, most are derelict to this day, and Zimbabwe had no flour over the Christmas season due to lack of local production, and all foreign currency was spent on luxury cars for politicians. On the South African front, our family farms were not bought by the government while all around were, I suspect because my in laws were mentoring the new farmers, the second farm was finally sold 18 months ago so we are now totally out of farming in Zimbabwe. Namibia and South Africa - though I am presently being regularly contacted to return to Zimbabwe to start up a new farm!
 
andybob":3rq2pzel said:
Dave":3rq2pzel said:
Bright Raven":3rq2pzel said:
You guys might want to pay a little more attention to Andybob. He has done much more than read a few books about Africa. A few older members here may remember his story.

I read what he posted. I find what he said to be consistent with my study. I know he lived in Zimbabwe and if I remember, fought in the Bush wars.

I am from Zimbabwe/Rhodesia where we were farming, served 1975 - 1980 with the Rhodesian African Rifles during the bush war. The initial farm re settlement went well with willing seller where plenty of assistance was given to the new owners, and farms not suitable were given a "certificate of no interest" and could be then sold on the open market, with no further claim by the government (despite this, these farms were later invaded) When too many farms were being bought for government officials weekend retreats instead of for disadvantaged tribesmen, the British stopped funding until more transparency was provided, and so the scheme stalled, and was followed months later by the farm invasions by the ex terrorists displeased by the settlements supplied by the government. Farms bought by foreign investors with guarantees from the presidents' office were likewise invaded so too were many successful black owned farms, most are derelict to this day, and Zimbabwe had no flour over the Christmas season due to lack of local production, and all foreign currency was spent on luxury cars for politicians. On the South African front, our family farms were not bought by the government while all around were, I suspect because my in laws were mentoring the new farmers, the second farm was finally sold 18 months ago so we are now totally out of farming in Zimbabwe. Namibia and South Africa - though I am presently being regularly contacted to return to Zimbabwe to start up a new farm!

Thank you for your reply. You and I exchanged private messages some time ago when I posted pictures of my holidays spent in Zimbabwe. I hunted with Con Van Wyk. He, like you, is from Bulawayo. I also hunted with Richard Brebner who currently has a small farm outside Bulawayo.

Con Van Wyk now resides in Cape Town. He served during the Bush Wars.

The history of South Africa is complex but what is more difficult is that there are multiple versions of it. Depending on the bias of the author. I suspect the truth is never fully captured. There is a certain amount of uncertainty with all of history. I still enjoy learning it.
 
This discussion was from 5 years ago. South Africa is not doing so well. My rancher neighbor just got back from a lion hunt in South Africa. He was horrified how people live and how dangerous it is. The Boers raised food but the natives who took over and murdered them can not raise food. Its just dry bare dirt. He said most black men that should weight 180 lbs looked to weigh about 60lbs. He says now he is so grateful to live in the USA.
 
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