Someone wants to lease my bull...

[Wisteria Farms]

Hi all..
question for you..

I have a good bull and was contacted by someone who wants to lease him. He said he would bring the cow to my place.
What I want to know is, what kind of vet check should I ask for to prevent any diseases transfered from either my bull to his cows or viceversa.
What kind of contract should I have.. if his cow would get hurt while here, if my bull would get hurt servicing his cow... etc. How much do I charge per day (since I'll be feeding his cow)...please give me any information you can on this subject... I want to let him so that I can get calves on the ground out of my bull but I also want to protect myself. Thanks!

 

[cfpinz]

You're asking for trouble, don't do it. The best way to avoid a potentially complicated situation is to never enter into it.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I thinkit would depend alot on how well you no this person and how well this person maintains there cattle.How you price this i don't no.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

This person is a state cop... met him this morning when he "found me" and stopped in to say HI... He is breeding a cow that came from the same farm I just bought some from. I'm fairly comfortable that he's on the up-and-up... I just need to know how you all handle it. Thanks!

 

[KNERSIE]

This person is a state cop... met him this morning when he "found me" and stopped in to say HI... He is breeding a cow that came from the same farm I just bought some from. I'm fairly comfortable that he's on the up-and-up... I just need to know how you all handle it. Thanks!

I just politely say "NO!"

This is my livelihood and I cannot afford to take the risk.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

This person is a state cop... met him this morning when he "found me" and stopped in to say HI... He is breeding a cow that came from the same farm I just bought some from. I'm fairly comfortable that he's on the up-and-up... I just need to know how you all handle it. Thanks!

I just politely say "NO!"

This is my livelihood and I cannot afford to take the risk.

Knersie,
I understand where you're coming from, however, I'm trying to get this bull in the herd book for approved AI sires and the only way I can get really accurate EPD's is if he is USED by different farms... getting calves on the ground. As a breeder of seedstock, I need others to use him to prove that he's as good as I think he is. In our list of sires, it shows how many Progeny he has and from how many different farms. The more farms that use him, hopefully will help interest buyers of his semen. Would you still say "NO"?? I think its a good thing in promoting my bull as long as I'm as careful as possible. Anyone care to comment? Tell me if I'm wrong... as I'm learning.

 

[Third Row]

Potential Rewards: You make $100-200 for breeding the cow and your bull's accuracy is .45 instead of .4.

Potential Risks: You introduct STDs to your bull, the cow gets injured/dies and the owner blames you for it. They try to get you to buy the cow (plus shipping and other expenses) and when you refuse they slander your name all over the area.

 

[milkmaid]

How about just having the bull collected and the cow then be AI'd at her home place? no need for natural service with the technology we have available nowdays.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Potential Rewards: You make $100-200 for breeding the cow and your bull's accuracy is .45 instead of .4.

Potential Risks: You introduct STDs to your bull, the cow gets injured/dies and the owner blames you for it. They try to get you to buy the cow (plus shipping and other expenses) and when you refuse they slander your name all over the area.

The $100-$200 - that's probably the thing I'm LEAST concerned about.
Accuracy - If someone is looking at EPD's, they're looking at accuracy.
STD's - this cow is from the same herd I purchased from two months ago. However, I was going to have her checked for STD's.
Cow gets injured/dies - I was going to have a legal contract drawn up that say this is an assumed risk..I AM NOT liable for that animal.
Thanks for making me think...but can I hear from those of you who do have really good bulls that you try to promote?

 

[Wisteria Farms]

How about just having the bull collected and the cow then be AI'd at her home place? no need for natural service with the technology we have available nowdays.

I thought about that too... since he's fairly close I think he was looking at convenience. If he goes the AI route then he may choose a "greater" bull. I'm just trying to get my name out there.

 

[bandit80]

I have always had a spring calving herd only. Many moons ago while I was in high school, I would lease a very good Gelbvieh bull of mine to a producer who had fall calving cows. He was a Polled Summit son, RGCC Ryan's Summit, you can look him up if you would like. Had just OK numbers, but threw really nice calves. Anyway, when he was 7, I leased him to a neighbor to service his cows. He had him for about 90 days, and when I brought him home, I thought he had lost some condition, but didn't think too much of it as he was with 35 cows. Long story short, he kept losing condition, and then did not test OK at semen check time. Long story short, the neighbor had just bought 10-15 "new" cows to his herd. He had 13 cows come up open at preg check, didn't say if they were the ones he just bought or not. The bull was good when he left my farm, he bred 22 cows. He evidently went bad after being there awhile, as 13 were open. This is a fairly good operator, nutrition and other things were ok, that is why I felt comfortable leasing my bull to him. Long and the short of it, my bull went bad while he was there. Was it old age? Did he "catch" something from his cows? Problem is, I will never know why.

Do what you want, but there are too many bad things that can happen. If everything is in black and white, or at a very minimum verbally agreed upon, fine, just make sure there are no shades of gray.

 

[KNERSIE]

Potential Rewards: You make $100-200 for breeding the cow and your bull's accuracy is .45 instead of .4.

Potential Risks: You introduct STDs to your bull, the cow gets injured/dies and the owner blames you for it. They try to get you to buy the cow (plus shipping and other expenses) and when you refuse they slander your name all over the area.

The $100-$200 - that's probably the thing I'm LEAST concerned about.
Accuracy - If someone is looking at EPD's, they're looking at accuracy.
STD's - this cow is from the same herd I purchased from two months ago. However, I was going to have her checked for STD's.
Cow gets injured/dies - I was going to have a legal contract drawn up that say this is an assumed risk..I AM NOT liable for that animal.
Thanks for making me think...but can I hear from those of you who do have really good bulls that you try to promote?

Not sure whether my bulls qualify... or my opinion is worth much,

But its good practice to have a really good bull collected, why not just give a few straws of semen to other MG breeders of your choice. Nothing promotes a bull like having uniform calves on the ground of the right type. Good numbers will always play second fiddle to good calves.

In chasing numbers you also run the risk of getting a big calf crop of all sorts out for all to see.

 

[3waycross]

If you feel good about it then do it. Sounds like you have your bases covered as far as liability and STD's. There very little gain that comes with no risk.

Remember nothing ventured nothing gained. Just be sure you can take the loss if there is one.

As far as money is concerned. Last year we sent 8 hiefers over to a friend and ran them with her heifer bull for 15 dollars a month no stud fee. You can probably get that and a little more. Be sure you have a good understanding about a pregnancy guarantee, or not. If it was me I'd guarantee her bred not pregnant and keep her for at least 2 cycles. You could always give her a lute shot coming off the trailer so you would know she would cycle soon and watch her.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Potential Rewards: You make $100-200 for breeding the cow and your bull's accuracy is .45 instead of .4.

Potential Risks: You introduct STDs to your bull, the cow gets injured/dies and the owner blames you for it. They try to get you to buy the cow (plus shipping and other expenses) and when you refuse they slander your name all over the area.

The $100-$200 - that's probably the thing I'm LEAST concerned about.
Accuracy - If someone is looking at EPD's, they're looking at accuracy.
STD's - this cow is from the same herd I purchased from two months ago. However, I was going to have her checked for STD's.
Cow gets injured/dies - I was going to have a legal contract drawn up that say this is an assumed risk..I AM NOT liable for that animal.
Thanks for making me think...but can I hear from those of you who do have really good bulls that you try to promote?

Not sure whether my bulls qualify... or my opinion is worth much,

But its good practice to have a really good bull collected, why not just give a few straws of semen to other MG breeders of your choice. Nothing promotes a bull like having uniform calves on the ground of the right type. Good numbers will always play second fiddle to good calves.

In chasing numbers you also run the risk of getting a big calf crop of all sorts out for all to see.

Knersie,
I think you took offense when none was intended. He actually was already collected...the straws are at Genex Hawkeye West. Problem is, we're still going through the red tape of getting onto the approved AI Sire list. We can register calves through live cover but not through AI unless he has gone through all the necessary tests. In chasing numbers, its a gamble, as is everything in life but I won't know what I've got til I start seeing calves.

 

[Wisteria Farms]

If you feel good about it then do it. Sounds like you have your bases covered as far as liability and STD's. There very little gain that comes with no risk.

Remember nothing ventured nothing gained. Just be sure you can take the loss if there is one.

As far as money is concerned. Last year we sent 8 hiefers over to a friend and ran them with her heifer bull for 15 dollars a month no stud fee. You can probably get that and a little more. Be sure you have a good understanding about a pregnancy guarantee, or not. If it was me I'd guarantee her bred not pregnant and keep her for at least 2 cycles. You could always give her a lute shot coming off the trailer so you would know she would cycle soon and watch her.

Best advice yet (along with the recommended tests post). Thanks a lot.

 

[Third Row]

Thanks for making me think...but can I hear from those of you who do have really good bulls that you try to promote?

You already have.

 

[dun]

You could always give her a lute shot coming off the trailer so you would know she would cycle soon and watch her.

Best advice yet (along with the recommended tests post). Thanks a lot.

A shot of lute my itself won;t be 100% gauranteed. If she has cycled within less then the past 7 days lute won;t do anything. To be sure you would need at a minimum a chot of GnRH followed 7 days later with the lute.

 

[3waycross]

You could always give her a lute shot coming off the trailer so you would know she would cycle soon and watch her.

Best advice yet (along with the recommended tests post). Thanks a lot.

A shot of lute my itself won;t be 100% gauranteed. If she has cycled within less then the past 7 days lute won;t do anything. To be sure you would need at a minimum a chot of GnRH followed 7 days later with the lute.

Thanks Dun, good to know :nod:

 

[Keren]

Some of this has been touched on already, but here's how I would handle the situation.

As you have said, you need to draw up a contract stating that you are not liable for injury or illness, including death, of the cow whilst she is in your care, unless it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that you were the cause of death (ie if for some reason you went crazy and decided to shoot her).

You need to have her tested for STDs by a vet you both trust. Also you need to require her to be up to date on vaccinations asnd worming treatments which are used in your area.

Next, have the owner synchronise the animal so that she will cycle either on the day of delivery, or in the next one or two days. Pen the bull and cow together and watch like a hawk, so you can certify her 'bred'. Then she goes home, he watches her and on the next cycle if she comes on again he can bring her back. You said he's close by so it shouldnt be a problem for him to bring her over the day she cycles. This shortens her stay at your place which saves you feed and thus saves him money, and also reduces the chance of her or the bull being injured etc.

I get a lot of my goats mated by stud service, with some people the service fee includes 3 to 4 days worth of feed, others you have to pay extra for feed, others you pay the service fee and drop over some feed for your animal. This is probably best because it lets the animal continue eating what she is used to.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Good luck.

PS can we see a picture of this bull you are working so hard to promote?

 

[Wisteria Farms]

Some of this has been touched on already, but here's how I would handle the situation.

As you have said, you need to draw up a contract stating that you are not liable for injury or illness, including death, of the cow whilst she is in your care, unless it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt that you were the cause of death (ie if for some reason you went crazy and decided to shoot her).

You need to have her tested for STDs by a vet you both trust. Also you need to require her to be up to date on vaccinations asnd worming treatments which are used in your area.

Next, have the owner synchronise the animal so that she will cycle either on the day of delivery, or in the next one or two days. Pen the bull and cow together and watch like a hawk, so you can certify her 'bred'. Then she goes home, he watches her and on the next cycle if she comes on again he can bring her back. You said he's close by so it shouldnt be a problem for him to bring her over the day she cycles. This shortens her stay at your place which saves you feed and thus saves him money, and also reduces the chance of her or the bull being injured etc.

I get a lot of my goats mated by stud service, with some people the service fee includes 3 to 4 days worth of feed, others you have to pay extra for feed, others you pay the service fee and drop over some feed for your animal. This is probably best because it lets the animal continue eating what she is used to.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Good luck.

PS can we see a picture of this bull you are working so hard to promote?

Keren, these were your comments on him when I pm'd you on May 4...
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I really like him angie!

He has a bit of leg under him and a style and presence that will serve him well in the show ring. However he is also very long and deep enough. The photo with the yellow tub shows an excellent amount of thickness particularly over the top line (this is the eye muscle - the most valuable area), and an excellent spring of rib. He has good masculinity for a young bull, and is well developed in the testicles. He has a tidy enough sheath and a reasonable front end and shoulder set. If I would fault him on one thing it would be a tendency to be a little straight in the hind legs. I have certainly seen worse on american show cattle but it could be an issue if you put a lot of weight on him. Just watch to see that he continues to walk freely and doesnt get 'hot feet' - hot swelling in the hocks and pastern joints - caused by a combination of high grain diet, lots of weight and poor structure.

He would do well here in our show ring, in fact he is the spitting image of a show bull we have on feed at the moment.
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I would have been glad to post his picture but I seem to be having trouble doing that as of late. You may still have the picture I sent you in May...I know you honestly try to help but I also feel a picture at this point would draw some unwarranted criticism of something I'm very proud of when all I wanted to know was how people handle this situation. Thanks so much, Keren, for you effort to answer my question.