Simangus bull calf

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tryinhard

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About 4 mths back I bought a black bull calf from a fellow a few miles from me, when the calf was on its moma it looked wonderful, well muscled. he weaned it, with some heifers, then told me that he was gonna take them all to the sale. I told him that I wanted the little bull, which I thought it was taken off of moma too soon, weighed, bout 400 lbs I put him in the pasture with only ten or twelve cows and another bull, black brangus, bout 900 lbs. well the cows were not setteling, had the brangus checked, he was shooting blanks, sold him, then put the charolais back with them, had to move the little bull to another pasture where only eight or ten cows were, it's dry here, but they have pretty good grass, n hardly feed in the summer, but the smaller bull has not muscled out like I figured him to, when on his moma, He is probably 700 lbs now and has bred some cows, but his but is not full, his neck is not like I think it should be. He is from a good reg.black angus cow, old though, and a very fine reg. black blaze face semintal bull. What do I need to do, I think he has the genes to be a good producer, but he does not look too bullish to me. Or is it too soon, he is around 8 mths old, maybe nine mths. Should I just give him more time? will be feeding before long. I wish I could put a pic on here, but this comp is as old as I am, antique. Will he fill out, do you think, am I in too big of a rush. Thanks for your replies.
 

Beefy

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he wont fill out if hes busy breeding cows. i'd put him up and feed him. maybe even out of a sack if you must.
 

Angus Guy

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If this calf is only 8 months old why in the devil are you trying to breed cows with him?
 

Angus Guy

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Take him away from cows and put him on feed. DO NOT TRY TO BREED COWS WITH HIM FOR SIX MONTHS!!! Also test him to make sure he is good before you put him with cows.
 

redman1

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I would just give him more time. He is still really young. I have had some that didn't fill out and look really good till they were over a year. I also had some that while on the mom, looked like sale barn material but once weaned and on feed, turned into really nice bulls. I do agree that he is way too young to be doing any kind of breeding but that is your decisison.
 
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tryinhard

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not really tryin to have him breeding now, just costly to put him put him up by himself. There should not be a cow to breed now, should he grow now? I would like him to look more muscled than he is. I've never raised a bull from that young that I didn't sell already, but I thought from his parents, I have seen calves off of them, and thought he would make a good bull. Maybe I am not doing it right. with the cows settled now, where he is, will he grow?
 

redman1

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He will grow but not as well as he would if he was on some feed. It doesn't take much, not like your showing him. I would give him a few months and then see where he's at. Remember he's still a baby. With a little time and a little grain he should start filling out and looking more like you think he should. I know it can be frustrating that he doesn't look like he did while on his momma but he will get there. They go through all kinds of growth spurts and slumps.
 

Rustler9

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You are going to ruin that calf if you don't get him out of there with those cows. He has no business breeding at that age. He will never fill out and will probably be stunted. The earliest that a young bull should be put with a very few cows is 15-16 months old and that's after he has been fed and grown out some. My recommendation is to remove him immediately. If you'll put him in a lot and supplement him with some growing ration and some good grass he should make a turn around for you. Good luck with him.
 

SF

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tryinhard":1guszmap said:
not really tryin to have him breeding now, just costly to put him put him up by himself. There should not be a cow to breed now, should he grow now? I would like him to look more muscled than he is. I've never raised a bull from that young that I didn't sell already, but I thought from his parents, I have seen calves off of them, and thought he would make a good bull. Maybe I am not doing it right. with the cows settled now, where he is, will he grow?

I doubt if he has bred any of your cows. I doubt if he has very much live sperm as this age. If the cows are not bred, he'll keep trying to breed them and consequently will not gain much weight. If this bull was weaned too early as mentioned in your earlier statement, he probably is in need of some supplemental feed. If you are unable to separate him so you can feed him, you might be better off shipping him. He isn't going to do you much good as is and will probably end up stunted.

As far as his looks go, sounds like he is underconditioned. He is also in that gangly stage. Should fill out as he matures, if he gets some good feed. I've never seen a bull of any age, gain weight when breeding cows. I'm not an expert on this subject, just my experience.
 

AAOK

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Wow! Poor Bull. He should have been put up when you got him and fed 8 to 20 pounds of grain a day as he grew until at least 1000 lbs. Any good Simm/Angus bull should have a yearling weight around 1200 lbs.

As stated by SF, he probably hasn't settled anything. According the the American Simmental Association, the average age a bull will produce live sperm sufficient to breed is 13 months. That's in good to excellent condition; body score 5 to 6.

Your situation is extremely close to cruelty!

Put him in a small pasture immediately with plenty of grass or hay. Feed him a bull ration, 10 -12% protein, containing corn, oats, cotton seed hulls, and soy bean meal. Also make sure he is getting sufficient mineral. No salt or mineral blocks; a quality loose mineral, free choice.

Turn him out to pasture after he is 13 -14 months old for about two months before he needs to breed any cows. He may make a bull yet, from genetics, despite your neglect. :roll:
 

redman1

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Well I'm not sure where to go with this. I don't think your doing anything wrong in terms of cruelty or neglect. He is obviously not starving to death or skin and bones. It just sounds like he is just young and in need of some feed, not cows, to help him develop more. We used to raise Angus and even had a few Simi's. Never had a problem with the weight of the Angus but the Simi's, until they were about 18 months, just seemed to grow up instead of out. I think the calf will be just fine. He just needs a little feed and lots of time to mature.
 

certherfbeef

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In my experience, a bull will not put on very much weight if wintered with the herd.

I always pull my bulls once the deed is done. Give them a snort of grain and some good hay till I need them again. After all, the bull is half my herd. He needs to be taken care of.
 

Beefy

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its far from cruelty or neglect. i'd just ignore that post if i were you. but if you want the bull to reach his full potential you need to separate him somehow to feed him. where was the charolais bull at? why cant you put them together and feed them?
 

Muratic

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AAOK":1qg7woas said:
He may make a bull yet, from genetics, despite your neglect. :roll:
Just cause you hand feed all your calves out of a sack and parade them all around like little stuffed fuzzy dolls doesn't mean that someone that weans calves and turns them back out is neglecting their animals.
 

AAOK

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Beefy":1dtmrt6p said:
its far from cruelty or neglect. i'd just ignore that post if i were you. but if you want the bull to reach his full potential you need to separate him somehow to feed him. where was the charolais bull at? why cant you put them together and feed them?

Yep! I went way too far. My appologies............and you too are right Muratic. I do pay way too much attention to my own. I do though have pasture cows. They are on mostly grass through the growing season, and hay through the winter. I feed a little extra supplement in the winter, because I like to see them fat. I also raise and sell bulls that are never paraded around. They have to go out and perform, so when they leave here, they are in top condition. I don't sell anything at auction, so they have to look better and perform better than sale barn bulls. People keep coming back, so it must work.

I'll stick by all my statements about the proper care of a growing bull calf. Neglect or Cruelty? No..........but it is not a situation to ignore.
 

Muratic

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AAOK":3oyebjb0 said:
Beefy":3oyebjb0 said:
its far from cruelty or neglect. i'd just ignore that post if i were you. but if you want the bull to reach his full potential you need to separate him somehow to feed him. where was the charolais bull at? why cant you put them together and feed them?

Yep! I went way too far. My appologies............and you too are right Muratic. I do pay way too much attention to my own. I do though have pasture cows. They are on mostly grass through the growing season, and hay through the winter. I feed a little extra supplement in the winter, because I like to see them fat. I also raise and sell bulls that are never paraded around. They have to go out and perform, so when they leave here, they are in top condition. I don't sell anything at auction, so they have to look better and perform better than sale barn bulls. People keep coming back, so it must work.

I'll stick by all my statements about the proper care of a growing bull calf. Neglect or Cruelty? No..........but it is not a situation to ignore.

AAOK, notice that I did not mention your cows in the pasture or your herd bulls. I said calves.

Thanks for the reply AAOK. That cleared a lot up.
 
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tryinhard

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I do thank each of you for your replies. I will try to put the two bulls in the smaller pasture, but I'll have to wait a couple of months, cause we don't have that much grass. I didn't intend for him to be breeding now, but I have never raised one from a calf. I am learning though, thanks to you all. But I have a limited income, disabled, son in college, 5yr. old daughter in Kschool. Divorced, only 43 yrs old. on a cane, and the ground, or floor much of the time too, just trying to do simple things. will soon be paraylized from waist down, but gotta keep on, as long as I can, Thats why I ask for advice, not looking for mercy, n don't need anyone feelin sorry for me. I can do that myself. Thanks again. I still will be dishing out the {cruelty,} at least for a couple of months though, I have no choice now, grass either to say. Thanks again.
 

DOC HARRIS

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tryinhard":1oepyckw said:
I do thank each of you for your replies. I will try to put the two bulls in the smaller pasture, but I'll have to wait a couple of months, cause we don't have that much grass. I didn't intend for him to be breeding now, but I have never raised one from a calf. I am learning though, thanks to you all. But I have a limited income, disabled, son in college, 5yr. old daughter in Kschool. Divorced, only 43 yrs old. on a cane, and the ground, or floor much of the time too, just trying to do simple things. will soon be paraylized from waist down, but gotta keep on, as long as I can, Thats why I ask for advice, not looking for mercy, n don't need anyone feelin sorry for me. I can do that myself. Thanks again. I still will be dishing out the {cruelty,} at least for a couple of months though, I have no choice now, grass either to say. Thanks again.
tryinhard - I am certain that you have the empathy and compassion of everyone on this Board for your present predicament. Problems seem to hit in bunches, don't they?

Insofar as your 'bull' situation seems insurmountable - it probably isn't futile. Here are a few web sites I have researched in regard to your dilemma, but you should read them and gain from them what specifically pertains to you, and what you can do - RIGHT NOW - to preclude future troubles!

Just a few comments:
1- Simmentals are noted for very high growth at puberty. This should ease your mind somewhat in regard to his not 'looking' as mature as you might expect at this age. The fact that he has been attempting to breed cows has put a large strain on his growth development. The summer heat (in the South!) has not done him any good either. He has been burning the candle at both ends, and without adequate nutrition has hurt his development.
2- MINERALS - Free choice of QUALITY minerals - loose, NOT hard block, and protected from the weather - is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL and vital for reproductive development, ability and performance for the rest of his useful life!
3- SOMEHOW, and this is not impossible-it just may take some careful thought and perception on your part to make it happen-you MUST get that calf into a small paddock or pasture with GRASS, and NOT with cycling cows! Rent, borrow, trade, connive, plead, ask for help from neighbors - ANYTHING - but care for that little bull!
4- Access these web sites and use what pertains to your needs. There are many, many more, but these are enough to get you started.

God Bless You, and keep us posted as to your progress.

Websites on "Bull Calf Development" (from "Dogpile" Search
Engine)
Precede all with http://
edis.ifas.ufl.edu/AN007
uaex.ed
beef.unl.edu
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

DOC HARRIS
 

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