Scurred Angus?

[MikeC]

Is he transferring papers on these bulls?

He is transferring papers, but who knows if the bull he sells matches them. :lol:

 

[rocket2222]

the dispostion on them were bad.

They more than likley WERE angus then :lol:

 

[Caustic Burno]

I bought some bred heifers from a large Angus purebred operation here in Montana last fall over superior auction. When I got them home and started working them, I noticed a couple with horns (either dehorned or scurred). I later contacted the rep. and ask about that, and he said it is not unheard of from the angus breed. Has anybody ever heard of that one????

Holstien in the woodpile coming out?

 

[Horseless]

Those were commercial heifers that I bought, but were supposed to have years of their breeding. Anyway, they were sold as angus. I have never bought from them before, I just thought I would get better females there, than at the local auction sale. They didn't gain a new repeat customer. This was my last attempt at buying females. There is only one way to get good females and that is to raise them yourself.

 

[SEC]

Doesn't matter if they are purebred there is a chance of having scurs on the animals.

Certain pedigrees would lend itself to having scurs. From what I know scurs are also sex linked as well.

 

[Badlands]

Sec,

The "chance" should be very, very minimal in Angus cattle.

This is a case of cattle that are from registered bulls for a couple generations and then coming up with a good percentage of them having scurs and in the sex that requires a high occurance of the gene to show itself.


Badlands

 

[badroute]

I agree with you horseless, the only way to get the females you want is to save your own. Then the only person you can cuss at is yourself or at least that is what I found out.

I had a closed herd until two years ago when I decided I could turn a dollar faster on selling $650 heifer calves and buying $1000 bred heifers. Boy was I wrong. That was the worst mistake I ever made in the cattle industry. Nine times out of ten you end up buying someone elses junk. It works for some but if you are serious about continually trying to improve your herd this is definetly not the way to go.

 

[randiliana]

Here is some info on Scurs and Horns. http://www.braunviehcenter.com/cattle_genetics.htm

The way I understand what is said here is that a Bull would only need to carry 1 scur gene. But, they also explain that it seems that the bull would have to also carry one p+(horned) gene as well. And heifers would have to have 2 scur genes.

 

[Anguscollegekid]

I think you should talk to the breeder. Since they were commercial, scurs can be acceptable, however from the breeder's standpoint, they really don't want to lose you as a customer so if you give them the chance for an explanation and to make it right, you might even come out better than before, it's definetly worth a try.

 

[skcatlman]

From my genetics classes in animal science this is what i remember. The scurred gene is seperate from polled or horned genes. Angus cattle of pure blood cannot carry the scur gene it originates in south africa. So these angus must have something else in their background. As for purebred breeders selling horned or scurred angus cattle they cannot be registered or so that is my understanding. So not only what they are doing unethical but they should be kicked out of the breed membership. So much for being guarenteed polled calves when buying a angus bull. Or the angus having a closed herd book.

 

[SEC]

Easy now SK, I am not disagreeing with you but there are known carriers of the breed to have the scur gene, red or black.

In regards to the closed herd book you must understand that many moons ago in the old country it wasn't uncommon to see Angus with scurs and I even believe horned.

Secondly, before the miracle of DNA there were many rumours of different bulls to be of not "pure" Angus. Herefords carry the same story. There is certain lineage that today still shows other characteristic, but will DNA and parentage verify so what are you supposed to do.

We avoid different lines but what's done is done.

These cattle were purchased as non registered animals so the fact that a few of them had scurs can at least be justified. Maybe the breeder didn't know if they had scurs. What really are the chances of them being scurred. Most wouldn't even think to check.

I would check with the breeder, he might not know, he might not admit. But at least it's been brought to his intention.

 

[Horseless]

Thanks for all the information. I was unaware of the possiblity of scurs or horns in the angus breed. I am probably more disgusted with myself for buying replacements, you just can't buy what you can raise yourself. At the same time that I bought those heifers, I also purchased young purebreds(just didn't sell with papers). After they calved, you find out why they sold them. I did contact the breeder about the scurs, but not about the other problems. I figured they already knew the problems thats why I have them and they don't.
I visited a different long time breeder out here in Montana while looking for bulls, and I was shocked at how many of their cows in production had bad udders. I believe it would pay to visit your seedstock producers while they are calving.

 

[SEC]

While there is some truth in what you are saying you have likely just as much chance of having a heifer with scurs as the average person.

For a commercial setting anyways why does it matter if you have a cow with scurs?

If you don't like scurs, better not breed them simmy

 

[skcatlman]

Angus are homozygous polled no horns or scurs that is what Angus is supposed to do. Even when cross bred they are supposed to leave no horns or scurs. I would like to see what happens if an angus breeder brought a horned or heavily scurred bull out on the show road. I wonder how that would go over. If the angus breed wants to have integrity the executive should get rid of breeders who doesn't cut a scurred or horned cattle.

 

[BRG]

If they show up in registered Red Angus, they are then registered as Catagory II.

 

[SEC]

Angus are homozygous polled no horns or scurs that is what Angus is supposed to do. Even when cross bred they are supposed to leave no horns or scurs. I would like to see what happens if an angus breeder brought a horned or heavily scurred bull out on the show road. I wonder how that would go over. If the angus breed wants to have integrity the executive should get rid of breeders who doesn't cut a scurred or horned cattle.

I don't know of anyone who has shown an Angus with Horns or Scurs as they wouldn't allow it for registration to begin with.

There was an era where certain bloodlines appeared to carry other characteristics besides Angus, blood typing couldn't sort it all out and DNA wasn't available. All a person can do now is avoid those bloodlines.
Know of lots of breeders who have had scurred calves show up, most will end up eradicating the cow family.

There are bulls with a troubled past in the Red Angus breed as well and those bulls are often avoided.

 

[alabama]

Guy up the road from me sells Registered Black Angus bulls with horns all the time. Not scurs but horns that have been removed.

I've seen a half dozen or so come from his outfit.

I don't want to drop any names on a public forum but his ranch name begins with "HALL" and ends with "Angus". :lol:

an Angus can not be registered if it is horned. So the bulls he is selling can't be registered. If they are I would like to see the bull and the registration so I can show it to the angus rep and stop that sort of stuff.

 

[MikeC]

Guy up the road from me sells Registered Black Angus bulls with horns all the time. Not scurs but horns that have been removed.

I've seen a half dozen or so come from his outfit.

I don't want to drop any names on a public forum but his ranch name begins with "HALL" and ends with "Angus". :lol:

an Angus can not be registered if it is horned. So the bulls he is selling can't be registered. If they are I would like to see the bull and the registration so I can show it to the angus rep and stop that sort of stuff.

This type of thing cannot be stopped. He will just sell a bull to someone who doesn't want the papers, keep them and re-tattoo the bull he sold to the other guy.

 

[alabama]

Well Mike if you know someone that bought one of these bulls and has the papers I can get the Angus rep to follow up on it.

 

[skcatlman]

It is nice to see someone who believes PB. breeders should be held to high standards which they are suppose to have. I have seen an Angus bull that throw horns, the breeder gave the commercial breeder another bull, took the bull to the butcher and quit using the bull in question's AI sire. Now that is integrity.