Retaining heifers?

[fnfarms1]

Ok so I'm looking at heifer retention alittle different it seems than some. My cows have been paid for for years. But we pay for all the feed, hay, equipment out of pocket. In turn we sell calves every year to pay the mortgage. Years calf prices are low, we sell most all of them except few butcher calves to sell. So when prices are higher it's easier to have the extra cash to hold back heifers when a steer is bringing 2x normal. Not saying it's easy to hold heifers knowing they're going to cost to get to breeding age when could dump them now for $1500. But in making cash flow work it's nice to not have to sell to make ends meet.

Am I the only one like this? All I hear is how anyone is dumb for retaining this last couple years. Admittedly I sold heifers last year and bought bred cows for quicker return. But selling at $1500 and buying 4-6yr old bred cows at $1775 seemed like no brainer, especially since by the time that heifer calves and sells you may have missed the high market anyway.

 

[Brute 23]

In a perfect world you would use the free cash flow from the $1500 calf to put in savings. When the prices fall you could buy the breds for $1000-1200 with the savings. Hopefully your cows make it through the next high cycle with out being replaced so you can put the cash in to savings again.

 

[Lucky]

The cattle market is a funny thing because to stay current you have to buy and sell in the same market. If the calf market is high it cost you more to keep the herd current and stay on track. We added 20 bred heifers this year so it ate up a bunch of the good profits we made but hopefully it'll pay off next year. The yearling guys operate the same way. I'm really not sure they make anymore money when calves are $1,800 as when they are $800.

 

[fnfarms1]

In a perfect world you would use the free cash flow from the $1500 calf to put in savings. When the prices fall you could buy the breds for $1000-1200 with the savings. Hopefully your cows make it through the next high cycle with out being replaced so you can put the cash in to savings again.

Ideally yes. I'm not huge gambler and try to keep herd semi current to avoid those larger turnover years. Sadly the low years have taken a toll and I needed to add youth this year. A lot of 2014 model cows in my herd that I know are nearing the end of their stay. Most have been my best cows. Bought these breds in hopes to retain 5-8 each of the next few years and make herd younger.

The cattle market is a funny thing because to stay current you have to buy and sell in the same market. If the calf market is high it cost you more to keep the herd current and stay on track. We added 20 bred heifers this year so it ate up a bunch of the good profits we made but hopefully it'll pay off next year. The yearling guys operate the same way. I'm really not sure they make anymore money when calves are $1,800 as when they are $800.

thats my issue. Ending up with bunch of aged out cows isn't cost effective either

 

[Warren Allison]

Ok so I'm looking at heifer retention alittle different it seems than some. My cows have been paid for for years. But we pay for all the feed, hay, equipment out of pocket. In turn we sell calves every year to pay the mortgage. Years calf prices are low, we sell most all of them except few butcher calves to sell. So when prices are higher it's easier to have the extra cash to hold back heifers when a steer is bringing 2x normal. Not saying it's easy to hold heifers knowing they're going to cost to get to breeding age when could dump them now for $1500. But in making cash flow work it's nice to not have to sell to make ends meet.

Am I the only one like this? All I hear is how anyone is dumb for retaining this last couple years. Admittedly I sold heifers last year and bought bred cows for quicker return. But selling at $1500 and buying 4-6yr old bred cows at $1775 seemed like no brainer, especially since by the time that heifer calves and sells you may have missed the high market anyway.

So., don't sell the heifer for $1500. Keep her and 2 and 1/2 years after she was born.. 2 years after weaning,... you will have a calf to sell. Or, sell that heifer now for $1500, put $275 with it and buy that bred 4 yr old cow. In 8 months or less, you have a calf to sell in 6 more months. And another one to sell before that retained heifer weans her first one. To me, it's a no-brainer.

 

[StrojanHerefords]

So., don't sell the heifer for $1500. Keep her and 2 and 1/2 years after she was born.. 2 years after weaning,... you will have a calf to sell. Or, sell that heifer now for $1500, put $275 with it and buy that bred 4 yr old cow. In 8 months or less, you have a calf to sell in 6 more months. And another one to sell before that retained heifer weans her first one. To me, it's a no-brainer.

Buying cows has other advantages, number 1 being not having to have separate groups calves and yearlings. Also with cows, dystocia isn't as big of a concern so bigger growthier bulls can be used.

 

[mwj]

A lot of it depends on the availability of those good bred heifers and cows to buy. How many miles an hours does it take to buy one. There are a lot of people with a sharp pencil that never show that as a cost of buying replacements.

 

[kenny thomas]

Retain heifers during the low part of the cycle. They will be productive diring the next high part. Take profits during the high part.

 

[jltrent]

Retain heifers during the low part of the cycle. They will be productive diring the next high part. Take profits during the high part.

How long will this high cycle last, wonder?

 

[Travlr]

How long will this high cycle last, wonder?

That's the $64,000 question.

 

[Lucky]

I can't remember the exact year the last time cattle were high like this but thinking it was around 2014? Things were different then than they are now though. I had the feeling that was going to be a short lived cycle so we didn't expand. This round of high prices is looking to last another 2-4 yrs so not keeping heifers or buying replacement cows just doesn't seem like an option for a guy that's been in the game awhile. I also hear allot of talk about selling out and buying back in when prices go down. Doing that seems like a good plan at face value but looking a litter deeper doesn't look so good. Not only are you going to miss out on the high calf prices but you may end up paying taxes on those cattle if this last long enough. You also have to keep in mind the number of years it takes to build a good cow herd.

 

[Warren Allison]

A lot of it depends on the availability of those good bred heifers and cows to buy. How many miles an hours does it take to buy one. There are a lot of people with a sharp pencil that never show that as a cost of buying replacements.

No doubt, location is a big variable in this, as it is on most discussions on a lot of topics on these threads. Every day of the week, there are 3-5 sales on dvauctions in both Missouri and Kentucky. And there may be more that aren't online, or on this particular website. And there are several states that there are no auctions on there, Doesn't mean there aren't sales in those states....I am just surprised at how few there are online in midwestern states. Never seen one in Colorado or Wyoming or Montana, other than special production sales, and you know there are a lot of cattle in those states, and certainly there are sales there that aren't on a live auction site. If there are no sales close to a person, then not only would it be hard to buy heifers and sales, but also to sell your heifers to get the money to buy replacements. Thee is only one online in Ga every week, on Wednesday, but I know of 90 other regular weekly sales here.

Watching the KY and Mo sales right now, and one in Oklahoma and two in South Dakota. As usual the higher price are in MO and the lowest in Ky, and that has NOITHING to do with the quality of the cattle, especially ion KY. If you lives somewhere between these 2 states, you could have sent a load of weaned black heifers to Mo, and went to a kY sale, where you could buy pairs and 3-n-1's for what they sold for in Mo.

And there are operations that specialize in raising heifers to sell, open or bred, either private treaty or production sales.

 

[mwj]

I would doubt that there are many buying replacements without seeing them. If they are they are probably using an order buyer that will have knowledge of the cattle.

 

[Lucky]

I would doubt that there are many buying replacements without seeing them. If they are they are probably using an order buyer that will have knowledge of the cattle.

Are you talking not seeing them in person? If so I'd have to disagree

 

[Little Joe]

Ok so I'm looking at heifer retention alittle different it seems than some. My cows have been paid for for years. But we pay for all the feed, hay, equipment out of pocket. In turn we sell calves every year to pay the mortgage. Years calf prices are low, we sell most all of them except few butcher calves to sell. So when prices are higher it's easier to have the extra cash to hold back heifers when a steer is bringing 2x normal. Not saying it's easy to hold heifers knowing they're going to cost to get to breeding age when could dump them now for $1500. But in making cash flow work it's nice to not have to sell to make ends meet.

Am I the only one like this? All I hear is how anyone is dumb for retaining this last couple years. Admittedly I sold heifers last year and bought bred cows for quicker return. But selling at $1500 and buying 4-6yr old bred cows at $1775 seemed like no brainer, especially since by the time that heifer calves and sells you may have missed the high market anyway.

I'd sell the heifers and hold on to any cow that was producing and if one had to be replaced I'd buy pairs, take the extra money you're making selling heifers and put it all towards the mortgage to pay it down. Then when the mortgage is gone you can use all the money you was paying towards it to buy or retain good replacements and have everything paid for. Just my 2 cents, that's how I look at things.

 

[Lucky]

Then when the mortgage is gone you can use all the money you was paying towards it to buy or retain good replacements and have everything paid for.

That sounds like a good plan but a mortgage can be a whole lotta years and a whole lotta dollars. Shoot the mortgage I had at one time would've killed a couple herds of young cows.

 

[fnfarms1]

That sounds like a good plan but a mortgage can be a whole lotta years and a whole lotta dollars. Shoot the mortgage I had at one time would've killed a couple herds of young cows.

That's why I say I'm not a big gambler. The gamble there is that the cows last long enough to pay it off. Honestly my mortgage is about 10yrs left. Runs 17k/yr. Most years there's enough calves to make it plus some. Last couple there's extra but I've used the extra to replace old cows or replace equipment.
Not saying all my financial decisions are the best, but I'm a believer in trying to balance the spending and responsible stuff. I've seen enough guys save and pay things off just to die shortly after or while paying and never enjoy it. Also seen those that never save a dime and lose it all in a bad year.

 

[CowboyRam]

No doubt, location is a big variable in this, as it is on most discussions on a lot of topics on these threads. Every day of the week, there are 3-5 sales on dvauctions in both Missouri and Kentucky. And there may be more that aren't online, or on this particular website. And there are several states that there are no auctions on there, Doesn't mean there aren't sales in those states....I am just surprised at how few there are online in midwestern states. Never seen one in Colorado or Wyoming or Montana, other than special production sales, and you know there are a lot of cattle in those states, and certainly there are sales there that aren't on a live auction site. If there are no sales close to a person, then not only would it be hard to buy heifers and sales, but also to sell your heifers to get the money to buy replacements. Thee is only one online in Ga every week, on Wednesday, but I know of 90 other regular weekly sales here.

Watching the KY and Mo sales right now, and one in Oklahoma and two in South Dakota. As usual the higher price are in MO and the lowest in Ky, and that has NOITHING to do with the quality of the cattle, especially ion KY. If you lives somewhere between these 2 states, you could have sent a load of weaned black heifers to Mo, and went to a kY sale, where you could buy pairs and 3-n-1's for what they sold for in Mo.

And there are operations that specialize in raising heifers to sell, open or bred, either private treaty or production sales.

Go to Cattle USA. Riverton, Torrington, Buffalo Wyoming are all on that site. Centennial Livestock in Fort Collins Colorado, and also Sterling Colorado is on there. Billings MT is also on there. There are probably more, but those are the ones I seen at a glance.

Torrington is Wyoming's biggest auction barn. I know of a few people that buy in Riverton, and they later sell in Torrington. One guy even told me the difference in commission pays for his trucking, but I never sold anything in Torrington so I don't really know if that is true. The barn here in Riverton is only 8 miles from the farm. I could probably make a little more if I did haul to Torrington, but I prefer to give my business to the local barn. It's kind of handy having a barn so close. There is a bred cow special for next Tuesday coming up.

Riverton Livestock - Riverton, WY | Winter Livestock

Riverton Livestock - Riverton, Wyoming. Sale Tuesday, contact information, consignments, and market reports.

www.winterlivestock.com

 

[Warren Allison]

Are you talking not seeing them in person? If so I'd have to disagree

I agree with you ,@Lucky . Some people can go to a local sale themselves, or live close enough to a replacement heifer breeder to go there themselves. A lot are bought and sold off video and photos. A lot of production sale animals are bought over the internet or phone, And a lot are bought by someone they hired to get cattle for them. Or maybe jus a friend that can go for them. In the past 3 years, I have bought 5 herds for 5 clients. One I carried with me to the breeders or sales. Others I put together by going to sales and breeders myself, and by using folks like myself in other states or other parts of Ga. One client a couple years ago that wanted 100 Brahmas, I got 80 of them by getting a colleague in central Florida to put them together. After I got them. the client decided he wanted 40 more. Hardest herd I bought for a client, was for one who wanted 150 Bra x Herf cows. Ended up having to actually get 35 reg Brafords to get 150 quality cows. I used all the methods above to build that herd. Started in 2021 and was well into 2022 before I got done. There are also several sale barn owners that I know well, that I can call them and tell them what I am looking for, and they will buy them for me. I know of two replacement breeders that while the first time or two a person bought from them, they came out to their place themselves, but now most of their repeat buyers just call them and tell them what they want, and ask when they can send after them or get them delivered. Lots of ways to buy, and sell, cattle with out doing it all hands-on yourself.

 

[Brute 23]

Are you talking not seeing them in person? If so I'd have to disagree

... and that is why I trust buying cattle from others even less.

I have told this story numerous times but I drove to a W4 Hereford sale several years ago. It was several hours away so I go a hotel near the sale the night before. I got there real early because I wanted to see the cattle before they got stirred up. There were only a couple workers there feeding and others started to slowly trickle in. I was bsing with one and saw a group of their guys saddling up. They didn't even have all the bulls caught yet. They were talking about a group that got away and they were going back to rope and tie them. I didn't worry much because I figured I could spit them easy enough as they came through. Then I found out you just sat in a barn and watched pre-recorded videos and a lot of the buyers were online. No dice... I'm not sucker.

I did not buy one animal and had intentions of getting some bred heifers and maybe a bull. The manager, asked me if I found any thing I liked and I said naw. Then he asked me if I wanted to haul some bulls back to a buyer that lived in the same town (family with eagle ford money). I asked who was responsible if some thing happened to the bulls and he said that was between me and the buyer. I just laughed and said no thanks.

After those two experiences I realized they prefer suckers over cattle people. I haven't been back.

When I was younger if you were in a bind and needed a good horse, dogs, cattle, or hard working teenagers you could find them. People were raised all those to work and they would get you out of a bind or at least take the cash. Not any more.