REPLACEMENT BREEDING

[herfdog]

Lets say i am breeding my registered herefords mainly for hiefer replacements. so do i try to select
epd YW at breed average or below so I don't get bigger framed cattle?

What about when you are trying to raise bulls to sell and you want high (100) YW numbers. and you get heifers with that high of a YW (100) number and you want to keep for replacements do you worry about their frame size getting bigger? thanks for any comments

 

[IluvABbeef]

I think there's more to selecting replacements than choosing whether yearling wt. is too high or too low.

Like, oh let's see, birth weight of sire and dam, calving ease, conformation, etc.

JMHO.

 

[herfdog]

I'am pretty sure the question was on YW epds and frame creep not any thing else

 

[IluvABbeef]

Oh I know you was askin about YW EPDs its just that I was wondering, wouldn't you be selecting for more than just one EPD factor than YW? Because it just seemed to me that you were asking on a basis of selecting replacements based on a YW EPD only.

Of course I could be wrong. I'm only human.

 

[herfdog]

no I whould not select only on YW. I was just wondering if I had a heifer calf with an 100 YW epd
whould any one not keep her because of it being to high, worring that the frame size whould go up on that animal because of the high YW epd. because I whould like to keep cows to a moderate size.

 

[IluvABbeef]

So lets answer your question (as best as I can)

Lets say i am breeding my registered herefords mainly for hiefer replacements. so do i try to select
epd YW at breed average or below so I don't get bigger framed cattle?

What about when you are trying to raise bulls to sell and you want high (100) YW numbers. and you get heifers with that high of a YW (100) number and you want to keep for replacements do you worry about their frame size getting bigger? thanks for any comments

For the first question, I guess it depends on what your herd goals are. Do you want bigger framed cattle, or do you want them to stay the same? IMO, if your happy with the frame size your at, I'd select at the breed average.

From what I've been learning about EPDs and selecting cattle based based on EPDs on here, high YW EPD's are usually a goal for a producer who is breeding to selling all calves bred from a terminal sire. So unless the frame score for the bulls was too small the last time you were selling them as breeding stock, YW is more of a stocker/feeder thing. Again, with your second question (I mean the second part of the second question), it depends on your herd goals: Do you want (or NEED) bigger framed cattle?

Hope that answers your questions.

 

[IluvABbeef]

no I whould not select only on YW. I was just wondering if I had a heifer calf with an 100 YW epd
whould any one not keep her because of it being to high, worring that the frame size whould go up on that animal because of the high YW epd. because I whould like to keep cows to a moderate size.

Here you posted before I could get my second reply in....oh well. There was something about too high of a YW could lead to some problems in the future....can't remember where I heard/read that....but then on the other hand a heifer that has good feed conversion and is an easy keeper, she'd be a keeper. I've heard that heifers that grow fastest and put on weight better than the other heifers are the ones to keep as replacements. Maybe I've worded that wrong, but that's what I've learned. But like I said in my previous post, it all depends on your herd goals, what you need to improve your herd.

 

[angus9259]

Just because you use a bull with a high YW doesn't mean you can't retain heifers. Frame creep won't happen overnight. The first thing you should do is check the actual frame of the heifer you produced. Is she above your target frame? Just because a bull has a high YW doesn't mean every calf he throws is going to have a higher frame size. YW can also be attributed to muscle and capacity.

If she IS a higher frame than you like, use a smaller frame bull on her if she fits into your program from other regards.

 

[JMichal]

no I whould not select only on YW. I was just wondering if I had a heifer calf with an 100 YW epd
whould any one not keep her because of it being to high, worring that the frame size whould go up on that animal because of the high YW epd. because I whould like to keep cows to a moderate size.

If you like everything else about her than keep her. If she gets too big for you than sell her. It's not like she will screw up you heard.

 

[msscamp]

Lets say i am breeding my registered herefords mainly for hiefer replacements. so do i try to select
epd YW at breed average or below so I don't get bigger framed cattle?

What about when you are trying to raise bulls to sell and you want high (100) YW numbers. and you get heifers with that high of a YW (100) number and you want to keep for replacements do you worry about their frame size getting bigger? thanks for any comments

Regardless of what breed you're raising, or whether it's replacement heifers or bulls - you select for conformation first, and growth traits second. If the conformation is not there, it does not matter how well they grow.

 

[MikeC]

Lets say i am breeding my registered herefords mainly for hiefer replacements. so do i try to select
epd YW at breed average or below so I don't get bigger framed cattle?

What about when you are trying to raise bulls to sell and you want high (100) YW numbers. and you get heifers with that high of a YW (100) number and you want to keep for replacements do you worry about their frame size getting bigger? thanks for any comments

Keep in mind also that when the YW EPD's go down, the Milk EPD's go up, and vice versa.

It's just a natural phenomenon of the beasts.

 

[Frankie]

Keep in mind also that when the YW EPD's go down, the Milk EPD's go up, and vice versa.

It's just a natural phenomenon of the beasts.

I'm curious if you have seen some research on YW and Milk EPDs or if this is your experience? In the 20+ years we've been reading Angus EPDs, both average YW and Milk EPDs have gone up considerably. In 1988, they were +27 for YW and +4 for Milk. In 2006 they were +76 for YW and +20 for Milk.

In case anyone cares, the average height for an Angus yearling heifer in 1988 was 48.4 inches and in 2006 it was 48.6.

 

[MikeC]

Keep in mind also that when the YW EPD's go down, the Milk EPD's go up, and vice versa.

It's just a natural phenomenon of the beasts.

I'm curious if you have seen some research on YW and Milk EPDs or if this is your experience? In the 20+ years we've been reading Angus EPDs, both average YW and Milk EPDs have gone up considerably. In 1988, they were +27 for YW and +4 for Milk. In 2006 they were +76 for YW and +20 for Milk.

In case anyone cares, the average height for an Angus yearling heifer in 1988 was 48.4 inches and in 2006 it was 48.6.

When the formula for the way our YW Epd's were calculated changed a few years back, the YW's went up and the Milk numbers dropped because of that genetic relationship.

The calculation change was because of some new genetic relevation by the Univ of Georgia.

They calculate more EPD's than anyone and claim to know. :shock:

Dr. Keith Bertrand there is supposedly the Guru of EPD's.

 

[Santas and Duhram Reds]

In case anyone cares, the average height for an Angus yearling heifer in 1988 was 48.4 inches and in 2006 it was 48.6.

very interesting

 

[MikeC]

In case anyone cares, the average height for an Angus yearling heifer in 1988 was 48.4 inches and in 2006 it was 48.6.

very interesting

I would have thought the height would have been much higher in 1988 than 2006.

It was a little earlier that Angus cattle grew legs overnight. :shock:

 

[MikeC]

In 1988, they were +27 for YW and +4 for Milk. In 2006 they were +76 for YW and +20 for Milk.

Brown Swiss and/or Holstein influence? :lol:

 

[I luv herfrds]

Nice bit of trivia Frankie. Now I can annoy my neighbors who raise registered black Angus. :lol: :lol:

Sometimes some get too much "genetics" in them. Yes saw one at a friends place. Coming 2yo was as big as a 5 yo cow. He was concerned that she would have problems due to her size. Registered Hereford breeder.
For myself I would not really want a YW at 100 on the epd's. I would like to look at actual weights, growth, frame etc. before deciding.

Does this question come from one of your cows?

 

[Frankie]

Nice bit of trivia Frankie. Now I can annoy my neighbors who raise registered black Angus. :lol: :lol:

Sometimes some get too much "genetics" in them. Yes saw one at a friends place. Coming 2yo was as big as a 5 yo cow. He was concerned that she would have problems due to her size. Registered Hereford breeder.
For myself I would not really want a YW at 100 on the epd's. I would like to look at actual weights, growth, frame etc. before deciding.

Does this question come from one of your cows?

The question about milk? I was just curious as to whether there was actual research showing that correlation. Several years ago the Angus Assn made a change in the EPD formula that resulted in a lower scrotal EPDs on most animals. There was a huge uproar from some breeders. The Angus Journal benefited greatly from one breeder who spent boo koo bucks on two-three page ads for most of the year complaining about the change. He had a high dollar bull that had gone from a positive scrotal EPD to a negative in the change and he was upset. Over the years, his bull is back to positive. I guess it was something similar in the Charlaois breed EPS.

We tend to select bulls with high WW and YW EPDs because our goal is to sell bulls to commercial cattlemen. Lots of them sell their calves at weaning and need the higher weights. Those that retain ownership through the feedlot are looking for higher YWs. If our market was replacement heifers, we might look at different bulls.

 

[EAT BEEF]

We tend to select bulls with high WW and YW EPDs because our goal is to sell bulls to commercial cattlemen. Lots of them sell their calves at weaning and need the higher weights. Those that retain ownership through the feedlot are looking for higher YWs. If our market was replacement heifers, we might look at different bulls.
Frankie


Imo that is what you shoud be looking at. Are you trying to make cows or terminal bulls?

 

[Aaron]

Just because you use a bull with a high YW doesn't mean you can't retain heifers. Frame creep won't happen overnight. The first thing you should do is check the actual frame of the heifer you produced. Is she above your target frame? Just because a bull has a high YW doesn't mean every calf he throws is going to have a higher frame size. YW can also be attributed to muscle and capacity.

If she IS a higher frame than you like, use a smaller frame bull on her if she fits into your program from other regards.

This is the best response so far IMHO. Look at your frame scores. There are a lot of Hereford (particularly Horned Hereford) bulls that have over a 100 YW EPD, but have a frame size of 6 or less. Lots of spine and growth potential horizontally will bring your YW EPD up a lot fast than vertical growth. If it was the other way around, there should be Polled Hereford bulls from the 80's that have a 200 YW EPD by todays standards. Like angus said, a lot of the YW EPD can be contributed to weight gain and muscle accumulation, something you don't get much of, very fast with a giraffe-built steer.